Would you consider it a TLM abuse?

[Cristiano]

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)
The priest skipping some words during Mass
Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving
People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement
People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes.

 

[Uxor]

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)
The priest skipping some words during Mass
Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving
People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement
People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes.

Do you have a link for that?

 

[Caesar]

The priest skipping some words during Mass.

That is an abuse at any Mass.

People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Once again, that is an abuse whether it is NO, TLM or even the Eastern Divine Liturgy.

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)

…

Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving

These would be abuses in the TLM.

People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement

Out of a charismatic attitude, or for the rosaries to be blessed? Was there electric guitars and pentecostal music?

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

And how!

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes

I sincerely doubt that. For one thing, Padre Pio had only the utmost reverance for the Mass and the Eucharist, and secondly he had no small amount of dislike for the Novus Ordo innovations, like the freestanding altars (when he heard that a new Rite had been created, he immediately went to the Pope to recieve permission to continue celebrating the traditional Mass without even having looked at the text of the NO).

Show me proof.

 

[BobP123]

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)
The priest skipping some words during Mass
Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving
People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement
People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes.

1. It is only traditional to say the Mass ad orientem. If people are “behind” the altar as in some churches they are, this really isn’t considered an abuse. Depends on the intent, I guess.
2. The Canon of the Mass is supposed to be recited silently. It is trusted that the priest says all the prayers.
3. I’ve seen people who cannot kneel receive Communion from an understanding priest. Not an abuse per se.
4. People should be praying the Mass. Rosaries can be said before or after Mass. Charismatic movements are another matter. Definitely in poor taste at any Mass.
5. Unnecessary chatting is disrespectful to God. (I have complained, yes.)

 

[Cristiano]

Do you have a link for that?

It was on EWTN a couple of nights ago.

 

[CathMass]

I agree with the OP, I loved watching this Mass too.

I believe, this was the transitional 1965 Missal. It was almost Tridentine but it lacked a great deal like the Last Gospel and the full prayers at the foot of the altar. Also, Padre Pio was rather ill and sickly and if those who watched the show listened carefully, the narrator said something about the Padre forgetting some things.(he’s still human though he had bilocation, stigmata etc…) Also, the narrator said that Padre Pio would have preffered a Low Mass but was forced under obedience to do a High Mass. I don’t think there were major abuses if this was the 1965 Latin transitional Tridentine Mass (like versus populum). I know many say Padre Pio got permission for the old Mass but, if I recall a certain documentary said he got permission to offer Mass in Latin. They did not specify TLM or NO. Lastly, with regard to the chatting and waving of rosaries, the narrator even said that Padre Pio did not like all this chatting and sensationalism.

I feel Padre Pio should not be accused of abuse. I don’t think the saint would appreciate people debating about a Mass celebrated 40 years ago which was so painful for him to offer. I think we should talk about the more positive side of the Mass rather than critique Padre Pio.
Like the OP said

“Would you have complained it on CAF?”

So, I hope nobody has the audacity to criticize Padre Pio for how he said Mass.

 

[Uxor]

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)
The priest skipping some words during Mass
Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving
People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement
People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes.

 

[Uxor]

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)
The priest skipping some words during Mass
Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving
People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement
People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes.

I went over to EWTN and discovered this was Padre Pios Last Mass. He was 80 years old, almost blind, wheeled chair in the church in fact he was so weak he almost collasped at the end of the Mass. He was also helped by his brother Friars at the Altar. He said this Mass the day before he died. He even heard confessions the day before. Already thousands had arrived before his last Mass. Padre Pio was a very very holy man, he is a Saint. His masses would last 3 hours, he would spend hours upon hours hearing confessions everyday.

What is your point, to justify abuses that go on at NO Masses by comparing it with St Pio’s last Mass in his condition, you don’t care for the Tridentine Mass? I think it is a shame what you are trying to do here…sad.

 

[Cristiano]

What is your point, to justify abuses that go on at NO Masses by comparing it with St Pio’s last Mass in his condition, you don’t care for the Tridentine Mass? I think it is a shame what you are trying to do here…sad.

I used that as an example that even a saint is not going to celebrate a perfect mass. He is a human being too. CathMass made the proper point that we should not look down on Padre Pio for that.

I did not compare the NO abuses to this TLM case you are.

If you read my posts in the past you would know that I love the TLM Mass as any other Mass and that I hate abuses.

You are making a claim for my intentions, and I am surprised that you can read my mind.

This post was to see how the self called traditionalist would react. It was not an attack on the TLM. I expected people to use a double standard for the “across the border” criticism of the NO vs. the “specific case” of the TLM. My initial idea was not to mention Padre Pio in the initial post but out of completeness I decided to do so.

My point was that a lot of people (not most but still a lot) here when they post about the NO they loose vision of what that Mass is about. They generalize with jokes, sarcasm, and innuendos. More often I see a generalized attack on the NO instead of discussing the specific abuses. That makes me sad as much as when I see personal attacks on reverent people just because the love the TLM. Look at what Marilena had to go through in several posts.

I used this post to expose a wound that is affecting this forum and that has nothing to do with NO vs. TLM. I have seen bad behaviors on both sides and this was a good example to show it. I know that I touched a nerve but sometime I think that we need to go beyond our comfort level to truly understand who we are and why we do things including attacking people on a catholic forum.

 

[Uxor]

I used that as an example that even a saint is not going to celebrate a perfect mass. He is a human being too. CathMass made the proper point that we should not look down on Padre Pio for that.

I did not compare the NO abuses to this TLM case you are.

If you read my posts in the past you would know that I love the TLM Mass as any other Mass and that I hate abuses.

You are making a claim for my intentions, and I am surprised that you can read my mind.

This post was to see how the self called traditionalist would react. It was not an attack on the TLM. I expected people to use a double standard for the “across the border” criticism of the NO vs. the “specific case” of the TLM. My initial idea was not to mention Padre Pio in the initial post but out of completeness I decided to do so.

My point was that a lot of people (not most but still a lot) here when they post about the NO they loose vision of what that Mass is about. They generalize with jokes, sarcasm, and innuendos. More often I see a generalized attack on the NO instead of discussing the specific abuses. That makes me sad as much as when I see personal attacks on reverent people just because the love the TLM. Look at what Marilena had to go through in several posts.

I used this post to expose a wound that is affecting this forum and that has nothing to do with NO vs. TLM. I have seen bad behaviors on both sides and this was a good example to show it. I know that I touched a nerve but sometime I think that we need to go beyond our comfort level to truly understand who we are and why we do things including attacking people on a catholic forum.

I thought your post was indeed to get a reaction. I don’t know Marilena. I think to understand the traditionalist side, one needs to study church history, read the Pope’s encylicals, read vatican papers, find out who sat on the council and why the changes were implemented and read scripture. I would love to talk about these subjects, but since I’ve been here I’ve constantly had to defend the Latin Mass. People prefer the NO Mass because what they don’t like about the Latin Mass, the language (the language of angels) or they claim they can’t participate. Those that say they can’t participate don’t IMO really understand the Mass or know what is taking place on the Altar. I think traditionalists have valid claims regarding the NO Mass, I don’t think it should be used to joke about or mocked, but even Pope Benedict said it was a “show”. After 30 years attending to me it was like let the show begin that is terriable. I look at the Latin Mass said for 1500 years, where all the Saints came from and I look at the fruits since Vatican II and the NO Mass and they are not good and I don’t know of any saint that has come from the NO Mass. That might offend you, I’m sorry, but it is the truth. Just look at the world since the Tridentine Mass was changed, look at Europe their faith it is just about gone. Why are we hanging on to something that is destroying people’s faith. 33% of Americans are left practicing. Ireland is gone. This is a crisis of huge portions and Christ’s Church is on the road of gesemine IMO. People are sleeping and need to wake-up. Reminds of the garden of gesemine when the Apostles were sleeping.

 

[Cristiano]

I thought your post was indeed to get a reaction. I don’t know Marilena. I think to understand the traditionalist side, one needs to study church history, read the Pope’s encylicals, read vatican papers, find out who sat on the council and why the changes were implemented and read scripture. I would love to talk about these subjects, but since I’ve been here I’ve constantly had to defend the Latin Mass. People prefer the NO Mass because what they don’t like about the Latin Mass, the language (the language of angels) or they claim they can’t participate. Those that say they can’t participate don’t IMO really understand the Mass or know what is taking place on the Altar. I think traditionalists have valid claims regarding the NO Mass, I don’t think it should be used to joke about or mocked, but even Pope Benedict said it was a “show”. After 30 years attending to me it was like let the show begin that is terriable. I look at the Latin Mass said for 1500 years, where all the Saints came from and I look at the fruits since Vatican II and the NO Mass and they are not good and I don’t know of any saint that has come from the NO Mass. That might offend you, I’m sorry, but it is the truth. Just look at the world since the Tridentine Mass was changed, look at Europe their faith it is just about gone. Why are we hanging on to something that is destroying people’s faith. 33% of Americans are left practicing. Ireland is gone. This is a crisis of huge portions and Christ’s Church is on the road of gesemine IMO. People are sleeping and need to wake-up. Reminds of the garden of gesemine when the Apostles were sleeping.

No offense taken. You have valid points. I just think that there is more to our problems than a change in Mass. I completely agree with you on the sad state of affairs for the western world. I agree that a change in the Mass (VII) has exposed a vulnerable side of the Church. However, that side was already vulnerable and now it is up to us fix things. I do not think that simply going back to the TLM will solve our problems. We have to go back to the true spirit of the Christendom, and maybe we had and still have to suffer before doing that. The Church will never be defeated but we risk to loose to many souls because of our hangups. That is what my point was about. We should rid ourselves of our hangups in the true spirit of sacrifice.

 

[Uxor]

No offense taken. You have valid points. I just think that there is more to our problems than a change in Mass. I completely agree with you on the sad state of affairs for the western world. I agree that a change in the Mass (VII) has exposed a vulnerable side of the Church. However, that side was already vulnerable and now it is up to us fix things. I do not think that simply going back to the TLM will solve our problems. We have to go back to the true spirit of the Christendom, and maybe we had and still have to suffer before doing that. The Church will never be defeated but we risk to loose to many souls because of our hangups. That is what my point was about. We should rid ourselves of our hangups in the true spirit of sacrifice.

What do you mean go back to the true spirit of Christedom?

 

[BobP123]

Sorry, I couldn’t reply to your private message. I or you have some kind of pop-up blocker.

 

[Uxor]

Sorry, I couldn’t reply to your private message. I or you have some kind of pop-up blocker.

Mine is off ??

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Mine is off ??

You may have too many messages in your inbox. See if that’s the case.

 

[bear06]

I have a pop up blocker too. When you see it telling you that it can’t open it, just click on the “messages” link in the box right above the thread box. It’s blue and underlined. When I get there, I just click on the message and it will open from inside the mailbox. Maybe that’ll work for you.

 

[Brendan]

Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving.

That depends, were the girls physically capable of kneeling. Allowances were made for those who could not kneel out of physical disability or injury.

 

[ncjohn]

I thought your post was indeed to get a reaction. I don’t know Marilena. I think to understand the traditionalist side, one needs to study church history, read the Pope’s encylicals, read vatican papers, find out who sat on the council and why the changes were implemented and read scripture. I would love to talk about these subjects, but since I’ve been here I’ve constantly had to defend the Latin Mass. People prefer the NO Mass because what they don’t like about the Latin Mass, the language (the language of angels) or they claim they can’t participate. Those that say they can’t participate don’t IMO really understand the Mass or know what is taking place on the Altar. I think traditionalists have valid claims regarding the NO Mass, I don’t think it should be used to joke about or mocked, but even Pope Benedict said it was a “show”. After 30 years attending to me it was like let the show begin that is terriable. I look at the Latin Mass said for 1500 years, where all the Saints came from and I look at the fruits since Vatican II and the NO Mass and they are not good and I don’t know of any saint that has come from the NO Mass. That might offend you, I’m sorry, but it is the truth. Just look at the world since the Tridentine Mass was changed, look at Europe their faith it is just about gone. Why are we hanging on to something that is destroying people’s faith. 33% of Americans are left practicing. Ireland is gone. This is a crisis of huge portions and Christ’s Church is on the road of gesemine IMO. People are sleeping and need to wake-up. Reminds of the garden of gesemine when the Apostles were sleeping.

With all due respect, it is exactly the types of generalizations, half-truths, flat out misstatements, and the condescension seen here that takes away a lot of credibility from those who prefer the TLM.

As one who has studied all those topics you mention, who has lived through and experienced both but still prefers the NO Mass and knows why, but still would love for the TLM to be available to all who prefer it, I really feel like you hurt your own cause making these kind of statements.

Are there sometimes abuses in NO Masses? Sure there are. Are there, and were there abuses in the TLM? You bet there were. Probably less now, but they were very prevalent pre Vatican II. I was present at or serving at a lot of those Masses.

What I really and truly don’t understand is why it bothers those who prefer the TLM so much that not everybody has the same preference they do. And after all, that’s all it is. The liturgy is a discipline that can and has been changed throughout history. There is no “one right way” here. We have Eastern liturgies that are quite different from the Roman liturgies, yet I don’t see people jumping up and down about that; only about those who prefer the Mass in the vernacular, which is the very reason Mass in Latin started to begin with.

It truly is sad the divisions we’ll throw up between ourselves, trying to make the traditions of man into the Tradition of God.

And Jesus wept…

 

[BobP123]

As one who has studied all those topics you mention, who has lived through and experienced both but still prefers the NO Mass and knows why, but still would love for the TLM to be available to all who prefer it, I really feel like you hurt your own cause making these kind of statements.

Ok I give up. Why?

 

[ncjohn]

Ok I give up. Why?

Because in being able to fully comprehend the prayers, and participate in them without having to translate back and forth, I am irrestistably drawn into the mystery of God in a way I never was when attending the TLM. In essence, I sense in the NO Mass a coming together of the entire Body of Christ.

And in saying that I am not in any way saying that you may not be experiencing the same thing at the TLM or that the coming together of the Body of Christ doesn’t happen at both. I am not in any way “anti” TLM; I just have a personal preference for the NO.

Is it perfect? Nothing on this earth is or will be. Is it “better” than the TLM? Nope, but neither is the TLM better. They are just different ways of experiencing the call that God makes to each of us.

Peace,