Would you consider it a TLM abuse?

[Uxor]

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Let me ask this question, don’t you think Christ instructed his Apostles, how to perserve the Blessed Sacrament, the forms for making use of it and communicating it, in what manner, by degrees, to teach and publish this mystery, how to consecrate themselves?

Pope Fabian, states in his Second Epistle that Christ taught them how to prepare the chrism.

.Now, among other matters, in your letter we find it stated that certain bishops of your district adopt a different practice from yours and ours, and do not prepare the chrism at the Lord’s supper every year, but keep it in use for two or three, making such a supply of the holy chrism once for all. For they say, as we find in the letter referred to, that balsam cannot be got every year; and besides that, even though it were got, there would be no necessity for preparing chrism every year, but that, so long as the one preparation of chrism is sufficiently large, they have no need to make another. They are in error, however, who think so; and in making such statements they speak like madmen rather than men in their right senses. For on that day the Lord Jesus, after supping with His disciples, and washing their feet, according to the tradition which our predecessors received from the holy apostles and left to us, taught them to prepare the chrism. That washing of their feet signifies our baptism, as it is completed and confirmed by the unction of the holy chrism. For as the solemn observance of that day is to be kept every year, so the preparing of that holy chrism is to be attended to every year, and it is to be renewed from year to year and given to the faithful. For the material of this new sacrament is to be made anew every year, and on the day already named; and the old supply is to be burned in the holy churches. These things i we have received from the holy apostles an their successors, and we commit them to your keeping. The holy church of Rome and that of Antioch have been guardians of these things from the times of the apostles: these things also the churches of Jerusalem and Ephesus maintain. Presiding over these churches, the apostles taught these things, and ordained that the old chrism should be burnt, and permitted them to use it no longer than one year, and commanded them thereafter to use the new, and not the old material.

I also looked up the authors from the books you cited, I would be interested in reading both.

I rather do reseach on St. Gregory, before I comment.

The essence of the Eastern Rite is the same and Rome has never denied the validity…

I haven’t gotten to Justin Martyr but I will.

 

[Uxor]

Can you imagine Pope Benedict calling Bishops madman today? LOL

 

[AJV]

Let me ask this question, don’t you think Christ instructed his Apostles, how to perserve the Blessed Sacrament, the forms for making use of it and communicating it, in what manner, by degrees, to teach and publish this mystery, how to consecrate themselves?

I was under the impression that the Second Letter of Pope St. Fabian was spurious? But even if it were genuine how does it relate to the prayers of the Mass?

I also looked up the authors from the books you cited, I would be interested in reading both.

I rather do reseach on St. Gregory, before I comment.

The essence of the Eastern Rite is the same and Rome has never denied the validity…

I haven’t gotten to Justin Martyr but I will.

You’ll enjoy them: they are very interesting. Or you can save your money and look and the articles which are in the online CE which are also written by Fr. Fortescue.

Re. Eastern Rites: I take it therefore that you agree that Christ has instituted the essence, preserved by all, and not the “accidents”?

 

[Uxor]

Let me ask this question, don’t you think Christ instructed his Apostles, how to perserve the Blessed Sacrament, the forms for making use of it and communicating it, in what manner, by degrees, to teach and publish this mystery, how to consecrate themselves?

What is your opinion?

 

[AJV]

Let me ask this question, don’t you think Christ instructed his Apostles, how to perserve the Blessed Sacrament, the forms for making use of it and communicating it, in what manner, by degrees, to teach and publish this mystery, how to consecrate themselves?

What is your opinion?

I have read the writings of St. Anne Catherine Emmerich too you know. It comes strictly under private revelation in the first place. And in the second she does not say that Christ said the Canon- at least, as far as I recall.

 

[AJV]

Let me ask this question, don’t you think Christ instructed his Apostles, how to perserve the Blessed Sacrament, the forms for making use of it and communicating it, in what manner, by degrees, to teach and publish this mystery, how to consecrate themselves?

What is your opinion?

I have read the writings of Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich too you know. It comes strictly under private revelation in the first place. And in the second she does not say that Christ said the Canon- at least, as far as I recall.

 

[mgy100]

The priest not consecrating ad orientem (High Mass)
The priest skipping some words during Mass
Two girls receiving their first communion by walking to the altar and not kneeling while receiving
People waving the rosaries in the air in the fashion of the charismatic movement
People in church chatting while the Mass goes on

Would have you complained about it on CAF?

I recently saw again the tape of this Mass celebrated ~40 years ago by Padre Pio. I loved it and I had tears in my eyes.

Most likely the 1965 Roman Missal, which first allowed the option to spin the altar around. I actually have a copy of the 1965 Missal, it has english hymns in it.

 

[AJV]

Most likely the 1965 Roman Missal, which first allowed the option to spin the altar around. I actually have a copy of the 1965 Missal, it has english hymns in it.

The 1965 missal contains no new directive regarding versus populum: the same direction is there in the rubrics of the1962 missal, in the 1953 one, etc.

 

[mgy100]

You may be right. Although I know the former bishop of the local RCC diocese (memory eternal) came in just as the 1965 missal was placed in the pews. He mandated english and I’ll check to see if he spun the altar around, whether it was correct to do so or not, sometimes things are done anyway

 

[AJV]

Most likely the 1965 Roman Missal, which first allowed the option to spin the altar around. I actually have a copy of the 1965 Missal, it has english hymns in it.

Yikes, sorry I deleted my post my accident instead of editing it. Supposed to come before the previous post.

The 1965 contains no major change in wording regarding versus populum: the same direction is there in the rubrics of the1962 missal, in the 1953 one, etc. telling the priest not to turn around if he faces the people for the Orate frates, when he says Dominus vobiscum, Ite Missa Est, etc. The difference is that the 1962 splits it up into 2 rubrics (Rub. Gen V, 3 dealing with the collects, etc. and XII, 2 repeating for the Last Gospel) while 1965 keeps it in one rubric (Rub. Gen V, 34) since the Last Gospel is removed.

 

[mgy100]

I wonder why the mass was celebrated 1965 missal with St. Pio facing the people? In any case, he’s a saint, and was a living saint so does it really matter what way he faced?

 

[BobP123]

Most likely the 1965 Roman Missal, which first allowed the option to spin the altar around. I actually have a copy of the 1965 Missal, it has english hymns in it.

Speaking of hymns, I’m surprised that no one has started a list of NO hymns we don’t want in the TLM.

I could start with:

On Eagle’s Wings
Kumbaya
It’s a Small, Small World (actually sung as an entrace hymn)

(what are the worst hymns you’ve heard?)

 

[mgy100]

Grille me to the wall, but I love on eagle’s wings.

 

[Uxor]

I have read the writings of Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich too you know. It comes strictly under private revelation in the first place. And in the second she does not say that Christ said the Canon- at least, as far as I recall.

LOL…Well she does say Christ instructed them. They were there at the Last Supper, heard His words and commanded them to do this in remembrance of Him. Why would they compose the Canon in their own words, is that what you believe?

What exactly do you believe, none of the words are the actual words of Jesus Christ it was composed entirely by man?

 

[ncjohn]

What exactly do you believe, none of the words are the actual words of Jesus Christ it was composed entirely by man?

Like the Bible, it is the words of man, guided by the Holy Spirit. Since the words of Jesus in the institution naratives even vary from one gospel account to another–and the same words are some times applied to a completely different setting in many of the stories in the Bible–they can’t all be “right”.

The words of Jesus are words of faith, and they are not a historical transcription by some stenographer sitting next to the table at the Last Supper, or any of the other events. For instance, which set of “Beatitudes” are the “correct” words of Jesus? Matthew’s or Luke’s?

To try to take a belief that each word is the “literal” word is to fall into the same literalism and fundamentalism that so many of our separated brethren fall into and to then be unable to reconcile the “conflicts” between the different gospel accounts.

Peace,

 

[AJV]

LOL…Well she does say Christ instructed them. They were there at the Last Supper, heard His words and commanded them to do this in remembrance of Him. Why would they compose the Canon in their own words, is that what you believe?

What exactly do you believe, none of the words are the actual words of Jesus Christ it was composed entirely by man?

Oh, no. The Words of Consecration are (mostly). Let me put it this way: what do you think are the words of Christ in the Canon? The very fact that there are multiple liturgies shows that Christ did not command with regard to specifics except as to heart or essence of the liturgy- the words “This is My Body” and “This is my Blood” . Several liturgies or fragments of liturgies of early date don’t show that much resemblance to the Canon except in general ideas.

And even if one wishes to say that He did say the specific, one would have to admit given the documentary evidence that some re-arrangement of what was commanded by Christ took place, and some parts (like the parts for the saints) were added later. Plus there’s that little matter of St. Gregory…

I would not say though, that it was composed entirely by man in a sense. As with all things in the Church, and especially with regard to the liturgy, which is the principal way in which we worship God, it was under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

And further the tradition of extempore Eucharistic Prayers (surviving very late among the Syriacs) would not have been allowed in an age where people where highly concious of the customs of the apostles.

 

[Uxor]

Like the Bible, it is the words of man, guided by the Holy Spirit. Since the words of Jesus in the institution naratives even vary from one gospel account to another–and the same words are some times applied to a completely different setting in many of the stories in the Bible–they can’t all be “right”.

The words of Jesus are words of faith, and they are not a historical transcription by some stenographer sitting next to the table at the Last Supper, or any of the other events. For instance, which set of “Beatitudes” are the “correct” words of Jesus? Matthew’s or Luke’s?

To try to take a belief that each word is the “literal” word is to fall into the same literalism and fundamentalism that so many of our separated brethren fall into and to then be unable to reconcile the “conflicts” between the different gospel accounts.

Peace,

Anne Catherine Emmerich said the Apostles were writting down what Christ said.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Anne Catherine Emmerich said the Apostles were writting down what Christ said.

Then why did it take so long for them to set up the canon of Scripture, at least for the Gospels? Using the above as an argument, we should have had the Gospels alone done and ready right after the Ascension.

We are not obligated to believe private revelations.

 

[bear06]

LOL…Well she does say Christ instructed them. They were there at the Last Supper, heard His words and commanded them to do this in remembrance of Him. Why would they compose the Canon in their own words, is that what you believe?

What exactly do you believe, none of the words are the actual words of Jesus Christ it was composed entirely by man?

Why is it that Luke’s gospel stops at “shed for you” and leaves out “the many” all together? Yikes. Isn’t it simply enough to say that “for all” doesn’t invalidate the Consecration? Again, I prefer “pro multis” because I attend the Latin Novus Ordo. That said, “for all” doesn’t invalidate the Consecration and the translation has been changed. Now can we talk about the Mass which the OP posted?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

And further the tradition of extempore Eucharistic Prayers (surviving very late among the Syriacs) would not have been allowed in an age where people where highly concious of the customs of the apostles.

Did not Saint Justin Martyr describe the Eucharistic Prayer as basically being the “president” praying “as best he can?”