Would you consider this abusive or extreme?

[The_Bucket]

All of this is well on point mega. Now it’s up to you to take decisive action. Or don’t.

I’m never one to really give advice about other people’s relationships and especially not on the Internet. But this is clear cut. And you know it’s clear cut. But you’re scared. Scared of what he’ll do. Scared of what he might not do. Scared of, well, everything. And I don’t blame you.

You’ve lived in a box for a decade or more. But a sober look would note that not only are you enabling his behavior and causing injury to yourself and your son, but that box is getting smaller and smaller. Right? There are fewer and fewer “acceptable reactions” or statements or whatever that won’t lead to him going off.

The truth of the matter is that, for straight up sociopaths and people with those tendencies and refuse to change, is that eventually there will be no acceptable behavior except total agreement and borderline worship. And then you will enable physically and financially and morally disastrous behavior… which, when the consequences come (and they will!), will be all your fault because everything is your fault to him, right?

Like I said, I’m not even an actual sociopath but I can see it. I can see where this is going. I can see that this would surely have been me in a few years had my addiction to pornography continued. Because it wasn’t just the porn or the acting out or anything else. It was totally warping my brain and making me focused on nothing in the world except for me!

Doing things for other people? Just… to do them? Not to get some reward later? Unthinkable. I hate to say it but your husband is way, way past that. He’s abusive and probably a full-on sociopath. He’s a danger to you, your son and himself. And you know it.

 

[EasterJoy]

You have real practical problems with regards to protecting your son, that is true.

Remember that your best way through this will be to consistently keep getting help in seeing the situation as it truly is. The truth is the rock you stand on. You need it squarely under you in order to stay on your feet.

Your husband has a pattern of “gas lighting” you–that is, he manipulates you so that you cease to see things as they really are, and instead see them in a false way that serves your husband’s strategies. You are right that it is exhausting to maintain your belief in the truth when your emotions are constantly being lured into seeing things in a false way. It is as if you are making your way through your day wearing glasses with warped glass in them!! It is not your fault that this is difficult to do!! He undoubtedly chose you because he found you vulnerable to his strategies. They may see it as having found someone who is “sensible” or who “understands me”, but these guys always look for giving people to prey upon with their self-centered garbage.

Keep getting help, and expect that you will need it as long as you stay in the same house with your husband. The sooner you can get your son away from him, the better. In the meantime, get help to stay strong. Get help to find the most useful strategies for yourself, to counter your husband’s patterns of behavior. This is too much for you to bear alone. Don’t beat yourself up about that!

 

[The_Bucket]

This is too much for you to bear alone. Don’t beat yourself up about that!

Indeed. This is not about him being strong and you being weak or anything like that. My wife is one of the strongest people I’ve ever met. She just had no frame of reference when it came to someone who could just bold-faced lie about things big and small in order to make himself look better or to hide negative and sinful behavior. It was easy, then, for me to basically run her over until reality caught up with me.

I assure y’all that such behavior has extremely negative and long-term consequences. Trust remains a major, major issue and while it is frustrating… I cannot and will not blame my wife for being a bit standoffish at times in order to protect herself emotionally. I imagine it will take many more years of honesty, empathy and compassion for her to understand, accept and fully process that I am not going to be that person anymore.

 

[mega1]

The Bucket,

When you talk about porn … How significant do you think that is?

My husband was involved in that although I don’t know how extreme the problem was. He went to therapy and said the therapist said it had something to so with his OCD? I dunno.

Anyway, we haven’t been intimate in a long time. I would be willing to guess it COULD be an issue. Again, I just don’t know.

He said that his therapist (back then) told him it was natural etc. that his daily habit was def not uncommon.

 

[The_Bucket]

Let me preface this by saying I speak only about my own experience. Not about anyone else. And I do not give advice when it comes to addiction. It’s kind of “the rules” when it comes to recovery.

In my own case, I know for a fact that I’m a selfish person. I learned that from my father… who is/was a full-blown sex addict. Porn, strip clubs, affairs (that I didn’t know about and that he doesn’t know that I now know about), the works. I had a very unhealthy situation at 15 where, upon my being discovered with porn, I basically blackmailed my dad about his own use. “I won’t tell if you won’t.” He didn’t quite go along with that, but basically he ran a little interference with my mother and I never actually experienced major consequences for watching porn while I was under their roof. Very bad stuff.

I cut it out late in college and thought I was just done with it, but major anxieties after being married, including my son being born very premature led to me going back to it after a few years. I can tell you for a fact that pornography use transformed me from a guy who struggled to be selfless but at least tried, to someone that did not care about really anything other than himself.

And I can say that my experience is not uncommon. I go to in-person 12-step meetings and I hear the same story over and over again. People with addictive personalities and/or selfish tendencies turning basically into lying, manipulative, passive-aggressive monsters.

That’s my experience with addiction. It’s horrible for me and even more horrible for people around me. But it’s also not an excuse. It’s an explanation, but it’s not an excuse. I chose to take the “first drink” as it were.

And while I lost control of my ability to choose to take subsequent “drinks” after awhile… that didn’t make me any less crazy, any less scary or any less… well… psychologically abusive.

 

[mega1]

I really appreciate your insight and your honesty and ability to push down the walls, that’s really admirable.

I can tell you this much…a good portion of my problems are rooted in my denial AND my inability to understand the depth of the destruction I’m witnessing for my son and for myself.

I grew up in a toxic environment too. I was just recalling this morning during a session how my father was so angry all the time…He punched through a wall a few times…breaking his knuckles.
He used to get in big fights with my mother and he would go sit in his pick up truck just SCREAMING…pounding the steering wheel and would make me sit next to him ( I was my son’s age) and tell me that it was obvious my mother didn’t love him enough and that he was worthless ,…He said he needed me to talk him down from his anxiety attacks or from doing anything really bad. He would scream that my mother didn’t love him…that he should just leave…he should have married his previous fiancé…he’d be better off dead. This was a weekly thing…

My Mother would sit inside the house crying and then ask me quietly what my father said about her. Of course, I never told her because I felt scared.

This was just my parents…this doesn’t include that they willed me to a former felon who had escaped murder charges…and that man sat in church next to me weekly with his wife. But, he was secretly raping me.

Sooooooo…I don’t see things the way I should. These BIG problems with my husband and/for my son…seem like small blips on the radar.

You see why I struggle?

Again, it’s a blessing I found my new therapist. She’s great and she’s definitely showing me how dangerous my husband can be. I just can’t get it through my head (yet) how BAD the situation is.

 

[The_Bucket]

Yes, I see why you struggle. Yes, I can see why this stuff looks like small potatoes. But I also think that, if you’re able to finally wrap your head around it, you may yet open the door to a supreme amount of healing.

I hope you, with help, are able to do so. I will pray for you.

 

[EasterJoy]

Indeed. This is not about him being strong and you being weak or anything like that. My wife is one of the strongest people I’ve ever met. She just had no frame of reference when it came to someone who could just bold-faced lie about things big and small in order to make himself look better or to hide negative and sinful behavior. It was easy, then, for me to basically run her over until reality caught up with me.

I assure y’all that such behavior has extremely negative and long-term consequences. Trust remains a major, major issue and while it is frustrating… I cannot and will not blame my wife for being a bit standoffish at times in order to protect herself emotionally. I imagine it will take many more years of honesty, empathy and compassion for her to understand, accept and fully process that I am not going to be that person anymore.

Exactly. This kind of treatment is hard to endure, and it erodes the trust that we normally ought to be able to presume in our spouse. In her case, however, it makes no sense for her to trust someone who has so repeatedly violated her trust. She needs to recall her experiences, and trust what he has done in the past to predict what he, especially since he is utterly unrepentant, might possibly do in the future. (The answer seems to be “whatever he imagines will get him what he wants, no matter how he has to twist reality an every concept of just behavior in order to imagine it.”)

 

[mega1]

Yes, EasterJoy…You are right. My husband knows I went back to IC…and he knows last night …I requested that HE go to couples therapy with me.

So, today…there was NO talk of couples therapy. AND he kept texting me today asking how my day was…what he could do to make it better…and stopped at the grocery story and made a special dinner for me.

See the pattern again?

He knows it works! I usually think…oh, see, he’s really sweet normally. The issues that pop up are just small blips on the radar.

But, tonight, I admit…I was annoyed. I didn’t even want to the eat the meal he prepared. I was thinking THIS is his routine.

I’m getting stronger and more perceptive…it is just taking some time…

 

[NFPWife]

Yes, EasterJoy…You are right. My husband knows I went back to IC…and he knows last night …I requested that HE go to couples therapy with me.

So, today…there was NO talk of couples therapy. AND he kept texting me today asking how my day was…what he could do to make it better…and stopped at the grocery story and made a special dinner for me.

See the pattern again?

He knows it works! I usually think…oh, see, he’s really sweet normally. The issues that pop up are just small blips on the radar.

But, tonight, I admit…I was annoyed. I didn’t even want to the eat the meal he prepared. I was thinking THIS is his routine.

I’m getting stronger and more perceptive…it is just taking some time…

This is not just his pattern, it’s pretty typical in abusive situations. It’s a “honeymoon” phase. Your husband has a lot to lose if he loses you and this is less about repairing your relationship than it is about placating you and keeping you in the cycle. What would happen if when he texted you replied, “I’m working. Unless you’re bleeding or on fire, don’t text or call me.” ?? What would happen if when he said, “What could I do to make your day better?” you replied with something along the line of “Call a therapist and schedule yourself an appointment. This nonsense has to stop.” ?? (Obviously don’t do those things without the approval of your therapist or if they’re unsafe for you to do.)

About custody of your son, would your husband really want to take him if you split or does he make you think he wants him and could get him as another means of control? I know someone whose daughter was always saying she would go live with the father. The daughter would argue with the mother, call the father and he would coach the young woman on how to better push mom’s buttons. He would also tell her that if mom only let her move in it would be so much better. Initially, mom would say she wasn’t allowing her to go to father for several valid reasons. Then, mom had enough of being double-teamed and said, “It’s $800 to have the lawyers change the custody, when your dad has that money he can file. I won’t protest it. The custody will transfer, but we have to do this legally.” Mom only had to say that twice. The kid then started badgering dad about getting the money. Dad got a tablet, a new cell, etc. etc. but never put the cash to the custody change. It was so obvious that dad was using the kid to upset/ control/ get back at mom. I just have to wonder if your husband isn’t up to something similar…

 

[The_Bucket]

Exactly. This kind of treatment is hard to endure, and it erodes the trust that we normally ought to be able to presume in our spouse. In her case, however, it makes no sense for her to trust someone who has so repeatedly violated her trust. She needs to recall her experiences, and trust what he has done in the past to predict what he, especially since he is utterly unrepentant, might possibly do in the future. (The answer seems to be “whatever he imagines will get him what he wants, no matter how he has to twist reality an every concept of just behavior in order to imagine it.”)

On point. And mega I’m glad you’re starting to see the pattern. If he really cared, he’d be getting help. Possibly checking into a program away from you. But he doesn’t. He cares about maintaining the status quo, because change is scary to him too.

I’m not putting myself on a pedestal at all, but I think I’ve got a decent handle on how to move in the direction of being a normal person. Last night I was getting frustrated with my son’s violin practice (he’s nearing six) and started acting, well, petulant. My wife noted that I was acting as immature as he was. In the past, I would have gotten really upset at that. Instead, I said something like “I’m just frustrated…” but then after a couple moments, I took her advice. I checked my attitude and took a different approach with my son. It worked.

I think at some point in the evening I said “what are you talking about” in reference to something that… well… I didn’t know what she was talking about! But the inflection was bad. It reminded her of years past. She told me that she felt disrespected by it and needed a few minutes of space to deal with it. In years past, out of fear, I would have tried to “fix” the situation. Asked her “what can I do to make you feel better?” Anything to try and placate her so that my world would not be unbalanced. So that she might not go looking for things that might be the reason I’m lashing out.

Instead, I just apologized again, told her I meant no disrespect but that I 100% understand why she would feel that way, that her feelings were totally legitimate, that it was my fault and gave her the space. 30 minutes later we were fine.

I think that’s something approaching healthy.

 

[mega1]

Wow! That is impressive! Congrats on not only recognizing those issues but addressing them!

I recognize that is not easy and one has to be ready for change.

I will say that I have trouble with “I’m sorry” because often I see that is what he will say reluctantly and of course I will say “I forgive”…

But them it happens again. At what point is “sorry” enough ?

 

[The_Bucket]

But then it happens again. At what point is “sorry” enough ?

When you’re not being abused. And I don’t mean “when he’s not currently abusing you.” Part and parcel of gaslighting is twisting reality for victims. That makes the one or two instances where an abuser appears to be doing something nice make the victim question whether he or she is actually being abused. It’s all another form of abuse, to be honest.

I didn’t “recognize” anything. My wife told me for quite literally years that I had a certain “tone.” That I was sharp. That I sounded angry all the time. That I was passive-aggressive. That I was distant. And to be honest, she said the same words you did. She wished I would just hit her so I could see what I was doing and that she could see it better.

That rips me up. I will never, ever forget her saying that. Why? Because she was right. Because she was absolutely right. It’s not easy to look in a mirror and say “you were psychologically abusive to someone you claimed to love. That you actually do love as much as you have ever understood the concept.” It sucks actually. But it drives me forward these days.

Like I said, I didn’t recognize squat. She packed up and left. No warning. Just a note. With the rings on the piece of paper. Telling me that she loved me, she would always love me, but that she couldn’t be around me because I was an addict and I was scary. What can you say to that? I of course first thing tried to call her and plead with her, but she rightfully let the phone just go to voice mail. Every time. For several days. I communicated only through family for a little while there. As I said, I was forced to look at myself and say “You are an addict and a scary person.”

It wasn’t until I was in a recovery program for a little while that she and the kids came back home. And it wasn’t like we went back to everything being hunky dory. I was in a guest room for awhile. Though we are back to husband/wife and all that stuff today, again, the injury still lingers nearly two years later.

I am fortunate that this recovery program notes that pornography was actually only a small part of the problem. That selfishness and pride were the biggest issues at play. That’s been a great help. It has forced me to admit my faults, admit my problems and admit my sins… and admit that I cannot fix myself. I can only surrender myself to God.

But look, my wife also was never abused as you were as a child. I don’t mean to disparage you in any way, or downplay the damage I caused in this situation… but you have many more scars to heal. You don’t have many good frames of reference for healthy relationships. My wife does. Her family is great to her. My father-in-law is my role model. She knows what a good marriage, a good family is like. Again, I do not mean this as an insult, but you have not experienced that by your own admission.

That makes your situation all the more dangerous, makes you all the more vulnerable. I hope you continue to get help from as many good sources as possible and make decisions that will protect you and your son and bring you on the road to healing.

 

[EasterJoy]

Wow! That is impressive! Congrats on not only recognizing those issues but addressing them!

I recognize that is not easy and one has to be ready for change.

I will say that I have trouble with “I’m sorry” because often I see that is what he will say reluctantly and of course I will say “I forgive”…

But them it happens again. At what point is “sorry” enough ?

"It is great to say you’re sorry, but I will believe you are sorry when you make amends for what you have done and make changes that will put you in less temptation to do it again.

Tell me: what are you going to do to make amends and more importantly what are you going to do to avoid doing this again? All I hear is how your behavior is someone else’s fault. If you are sorry in the sense of taking responsibility, rather than sorry in the sense that you wish you could just get by with this sort of thing without having to put up with the consequences, then tell me what you are going to do in order to prevent some future occurrences.

Throw me a bone, here, because I’m getting sick and tired of your crocodile tears!! You have fooled me with your lines so many times, to continue to put up with it would feel like an insult to my intelligence!!"

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, EasterJoy…You are right. My husband knows I went back to IC…and he knows last night …I requested that HE go to couples therapy with me.

So, today…there was NO talk of couples therapy. AND he kept texting me today asking how my day was…what he could do to make it better…and stopped at the grocery story and made a special dinner for me.

See the pattern again?

He knows it works! I usually think…oh, see, he’s really sweet normally. The issues that pop up are just small blips on the radar.

But, tonight, I admit…I was annoyed. I didn’t even want to the eat the meal he prepared. I was thinking THIS is his routine.

I’m getting stronger and more perceptive…it is just taking some time…

Of course his cynicism angers you! He is not amending himself, but doing exactly enough to appease you again, and not a bit more!

The question is this: Does taking him to therapy accomplish anything? If it never has, ask your therapist and yourself if you might not do better to take yourself to therapy to get support and learn strategies, rather than wasting time, money, and frustration trying to teach a pig to sing (or trying to teach a reptile to feel empathy, if that is the case.)

I’m not saying you don’t allow him to go. I’m saying you switch from listening to him lie and whine to a therapist and the therapist telling him what you expect and over to solely getting help to identify your own boundaries yourself, teaching yourself to draw those boundaries firmly, learning to predict what strategies he might use to evade cooperation, and getting support in making your own expectations stick.

 

[Luvz2travel]

You don’t think he would be physically dangerous to you, anymore. He already has been physically dangerous to your son.

Yep I’d get out of dodge for your sons sake. At least until he agrees to do therapy and see a councilor regularly. Don’t take his comments to heart so much. Don’t give him the power to control you. If he acts crazy just leave and tell him you’ll be back when he grows up. The fact that he did violence to your son would have been the last straw for me. He’ll do it again if you let him but I think deep down you know all this already. Prayers.

 

[mega1]

Hi all…

Wanted to update my story. Not a ton new. But, some possibly good news.

First - my husband has NOT made a therapy appointment and he continues to be in “pleasing” mode.
He has been giving me constant updates ANY time he has contact with a potential client…although, he hasn’t secured any actual jobs this week.
He offered to go with me to a woman’s dress shop before work…just so “he could spend time with me”…
And he asked if we could take a “walk together” every morning after we drop our son off to school.
I agreed to go to the dress store with him, but that was honestly just weird. He made a big production about giving me HIS debit card, since I have
no money in my account, considering the fact that my account could be garnished due to creditor/bankruptcy issues. I felt It was embarrassing.
I wondered if that was the only reason… he came along? That could be the cynic in me…

I was very stressed about work this week, I got pulled into a meeting with my bosses.
The preceding email invitation the day before…made me concerned I was going to be
fired. I told my husband I was worried something was wrong. Well, he said…no…no. everything is fine. Have faith.

Fastforward to the meeting. Everything IS fine. In fact, they asked me to take on an additional position with a very sizable raise.
In addition, this allows me to have some negotiating power to change my hours a bit. It won’t help me AFTER dinner time…with my son,
but it could give me some flexibility to pick him up from school a few times a week. I haven’t decided if this is really going to work for me…
but It is certainly allowing me a bit more to think about options. I have considered asking them to let me come in later on 2 or 3 days a week.
If I did that, I might be able to have joint custody of my son, and 2 days a week, pick him up from school and have dinner with him.
I would still need a sitter after 6pm to bedtime…but that is better than what I am currently dealing with.

As for my husband, he was very uninterested in the situation, until he talked about the money and the possibility of more salary per year - on my contract.
He was thrilled about that, of course.

Again - I think my laying down the law this past week …to a degree…has helped his behavior. Although, I must admit he remains very, very negative about everything.
He was sending me texts about a freelancer a company hired instead of him…due to lower cost …and complaining about how terrible the guy was and how he screwed up the job.
He said because it was so bad, the company would only be using him in the future.

Truthfully, I’m just tired. My therapist said she could see it in my eyes. I am tired…of all of it.

 

[mega1]

I went back today and read through these comments again. They really helped me. Just wanted to say thank you.

For the first time in a very long time today I was able to honestly think “what if” about all areas of my life.

I’ve spent SO much time thinking that I was stuck.

I started thinking what if I moved to another city and got a fresh start? ( with son and his dad of course). What if I seperated and got a live in au pair? What if I thought about finding true happiness?

It IS possible. But for some reason I have felt that it wasn’t attainable to me.

Maybe it isn’t. But “what if?”

 

[The_Bucket]

I’ve spent SO much time thinking that I was stuck.

You’re only stuck if you convince yourself you are. But remember what you posted a few days ago… that your husband is not going to therapy and continues to be in a “pleasing” mode.

Remember that if he really wanted to help the situation he’d be working on changing himself and not trying to make sure he’s in your good graces (relatively speaking).

 

[mega1]

It is hard to recognize that. I think he needs some kind of reassurance or a jolt of some sort

This morning I was struggling. I said boy you are lucky you don’t have to go to my workplace (we used to work at same place). Now he works freelance from home.

He immediately said “well it isn’t like I am home drinking beer I’m the lap of luxury”.

He constantly thinks I’m putting him down… It seems.