Would you give up your career for her?

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I took the question to be would you give up your career to marry the woman you love. If I were engaged to woman who wanted me to be a stay-at-home dad I would simply not marry her. I would of course give up my career if it were for the best of my marriage. However, I would not go into a relationship were I was going to be house husband. I don’t believe that the gender roles are completely arbitrary and I’ve never seen a relationship work where the husband was the one expected to stay at home.
Your position is entirely reasonable- for your own situation. Please, however, don’t generalize from your experience to the rest of the world. Many of us, here at CAF and in the real world, have families in which the wife is the breadwinner and the husband stays home- that doesn’t mean we think gender roles are arbitrary! I understand that this is not what you (or even most) men would be comfortable with in a relationship, but it is not morally wrong to order one’s family in this way.
 
my career is too important to give up because it pays the family medical bills and the med insurance premiums. so yeah, I put in the time to make sure that’s going to happen. now, that’s not as romantic or edifying as sacrificing my life, but, you know, its what needs to be done so it gets done. you’ll reach a point in life when you discover the unicorns are ordinary horses and the butterflies are insects. at least, thank the gods, I haven’t seen someone say “love conquers all” yet.

F/
I think you’re failing to see that one of the main reasons such a thing would become necessary is if ones wife is making more money, or has a greater potential to make more money. No-one is suggesting that a man put his family into poverty because his wife couldn’t care less about her kids but just wants out of the house. Although I guess that is another factor that has to be considered… So another distinction to be drawn is between for ones wife and for ones family as it is possible that ones wife would selfishly desire something contrary to the good of the family. That kind of scenario did not even enter my head, but yes, a father must put his the good of his family before selfish desires of his wife. That still doesn’t change the fact that sometimes a man is called to give up even his career for his wife and family, and in such a circumstance he had absolutely better be willing to do so, otherwise it is he who is selfishly damaging his family. And financial concerns are not always the only factor to consider.
 
you have your strawmen, I have mine.
I’m really not trying to be contentious, but could you explain what my strawman is? I’m sorry if I have misunderstood you and set up a strawman. That was truly not at all my intention. 🙂
 
And often times when the woman earns more its “hers.” Guys share but women don’t. Time Magazine did an article on this and reported that when the man is the breadwinner the spending decisions are split 50/50. When the woman is breadwinner she makes >90% of the decisions.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2109140-7,00.html
In my limited experience a woman will simply not respect a stay-at-home dad. The men that I know who’ve left a career end up divorced or cheated on with the alpha male at the office.
These are simply the consequences of strict patriarchal gender roles. If you adhere to those roles, you’ll think less of a man who doesn’t fulfill his “manly” role and punish him for it.

As a feminist, I don’t expect anything from my husband except to decide together with me how we are going to survive and function in this world as a family unit.

We have had different arrangements throughout our marriage, but mutual respect and the feeling of working together as a team have been constant.

I have been the breadwinner in my family for 7 years and I respect my SAHD husband greatly. He makes most of our family’s financial decisions simply because he’s better when it comes to handling money.
Like I said, I can understand that much more. 🙂

Although I would be careful to suggest that such a marriage won’t work just because you haven’t seen one that does… there are more than one couple here at CAF whose marriages seem to happily have just this arrangement. One of which has even explained that when she stayed home and her husband worked their family life became a mess and that the best scenario for their family in particular was for the husband to stay at home and the wife to work. I agree that this kind of arrangement only works in the minority of cases, but there are some people for whom this is the best arrangement. 🙂
If it wasn’t me, it could have been me. My husband is a neat homebody, I’m a messy extrovert who needs adult intellectual stimulation to remain sane. It’s win-win for us. 🙂
 
These are simply the consequences of strict patriarchal gender roles. If you adhere to those roles, you’ll think less of a man who doesn’t fulfill his “manly” role and punish him for it.

As a feminist, I don’t expect anything from my husband except to decide together with me how we are going to survive and function in this world as a family unit.

We have had different arrangements throughout our marriage, but mutual respect and the feeling of working together as a team have been constant.

I have been the breadwinner in my family for 7 years and I respect my SAHD husband greatly. He makes most of our family’s financial decisions simply because he’s better when it comes to handling money.

If it wasn’t me, it could have been me. My husband is a neat homebody, I’m a messy extrovert who needs adult intellectual stimulation to remain sane. It’s win-win for us. 🙂
👍 A voice of reason.
 
If it wasn’t me, it could have been me. My husband is a neat homebody, I’m a messy extrovert who needs adult intellectual stimulation to remain sane. It’s win-win for us. 🙂
haha, it actually was you I had in mind particularly litcrit. 🙂 Though I know that you are not the only regular on here with a happy marriage where the wife is the breadwinner, I remembered a post where you talked about how much worse your family life was when you stayed at home instead of your husband. 🙂

I also agree entirely that the failure of marriages with SAHD has a lot to do with culturally ingrained ideas of masculinity. And its not just women looking down on men for not doing what they perceive to be the ‘manly’ thing, it also has to do with men feeling inadequate because they are not providing for the family in the way they have come to see as ‘manly’.

Although I do have to say that the men working women staying at home divide does not come not entirely from cultural influences. Many women find it more difficult to be away from their kids at work than men do. And that doesn’t mean that men care less about their family, but, just that generally speaking, women feel worse about it, and so women tend to have a stronger desire to stay at home than men. And, again, of course this is only a generalization and does not apply to every couple, but it is generally speaking true.
 
haha, it actually was you I had in mind particularly litcrit. 🙂 Though I know that you are not the only regular on here with a happy marriage where the wife is the breadwinner, I remembered a post where you talked about how much worse your family life was when you stayed at home instead of your husband. 🙂
I knew it sounded just like us! 🙂

For about 9 months, I stayed at home and my husband worked outside. We both envied each other.
I also agree entirely that the failure of marriages with SAHD has a lot to do with culturally ingrained ideas of masculinity. And its not just women looking down on men for not doing what they perceive to be the ‘manly’ thing, it also has to do with men feeling inadequate because they are not providing for the family in the way they have come to see as ‘manly’.
Yes. These stereotypes hurt men, too. I’m a feminist to a great degree because I really like and respect the men in my life. Just the way they are, without attaining some arbitrary ideal of masculinity.
Although I do have to say that the men working women staying at home divide does not come not entirely from cultural influences. Many women find it more difficult to be away from their kids at work than men do. And that doesn’t mean that men care less about their family, but, just that generally speaking, women feel worse about it, and so women tend to have a stronger desire to stay at home than men. And, again, of course this is only a generalization and does not apply to every couple, but it is generally speaking true.
I actually agree and have personally found it much harder to leave my children when they were younger and really physically needed me. For me at least, it was a visceral, biological feeling. Luckily, my country’s maternity leave law made it possible for me to stay home with my children well into toddlerhood. By then, personally, I had no problem leaving them with their father.
 
These are simply the consequences of strict patriarchal gender roles. If you adhere to those roles, you’ll think less of a man who doesn’t fulfill his “manly” role and punish him for it.

As a feminist, I don’t expect anything from my husband except to decide together with me how we are going to survive and function in this world as a family unit.

We have had different arrangements throughout our marriage, but mutual respect and the feeling of working together as a team have been constant.

I have been the breadwinner in my family for 7 years and I respect my SAHD husband greatly. He makes most of our family’s financial decisions simply because he’s better when it comes to handling money.

If it wasn’t me, it could have been me. My husband is a neat homebody, I’m a messy extrovert who needs adult intellectual stimulation to remain sane. It’s win-win for us. 🙂
Not everything is about a patriarchal conspiracy. The arrangement became commonplace for a reason. What you enjoy now is the product of centuries of “patriarchy.” Without men obsessing over technology without the worry of chores we may very well still be in the stone age. In a majority of cases women feel more inclined to tend to the children because they want to, not because of patriarchy. You may be an exception but that doesn’t mean the old system was “bad” or “wrong.” No system is perfect.

Also, thank you for the typical feminist insult to us stay at home moms that we are not intellectual. I guess since your husband stays at home you don’t see him as an intellectual. That’s the ugly face of feminism. Backhanded insults to justify the female ego. Few stay at home moms isolate themselves to contact with the kids only. Who do you think does all the school trip chaperoning and PTA stuff? Whose driving YOUR kids around because you are too busy? Who do you think is researching / making phone calls about family financial planning etc? Whose learning about nutrition / health issues so the family stays well? Yeah us “unintellectual” SAHMs!
Yes. These stereotypes hurt men, too. I’m a feminist to a great degree because I really like and respect the men in my life. Just the way they are, without attaining some arbitrary ideal of masculinity.
I dabbled with a little feminism in college and those girls were anything but respecting of men. Men don’t need feminism to be respected. No guy I have met feels feminism did him any good. If I was still a feminist I wouldn’t be married to my husband. In fact feminism does quite the opposite and today’s brand of feminism makes sacraments out abortion and contraception. I think its naive to use that label and think it has any good motives behind it.
 
Not everything is about a patriarchal conspiracy. The arrangement became commonplace for a reason. What you enjoy now is the product of centuries of “patriarchy.” Without men obsessing over technology without the worry of chores we may very well still be in the stone age. In a majority of cases women feel more inclined to tend to the children because they want to, not because of patriarchy. You may be an exception but that doesn’t mean the old system was “bad” or “wrong.” No system is perfect.

Also, thank you for the typical feminist insult to us stay at home moms that we are not intellectual. I guess since your husband stays at home you don’t see him as an intellectual. That’s the ugly face of feminism. Backhanded insults to justify the female ego.

I dabbled with a little feminism in college and those girls were anything but respecting of men. Men don’t need feminism to be respected. No guy I have met feels feminism did him any good. If I was still a feminist I wouldn’t be married to my husband. In fact feminism does quite the opposite and today’s brand of feminism makes sacraments out abortion and contraception. I think its naive to use that label and think it has any good motives behind it.
I’m just gonna say, you completely misunderstood litcrit. First of all, not only did she not make the claim that the husband works out/wife works at home dichotomy is only the result of patriarchal culture she explicitly agreed with me in another post that there is a very real innate reason for this divide. 🤷

On top of that, she in no way insulted SAHM as “unintellectual” what she did was say that she is the kind of person who would go nuts if she only had little kids to talk to all the time, she said that she is the kind of person who needs adult intellectual conversation, she didn’t say that SAHM’s don’t need adult intellectual conversation, or that SAHM’s aren’t intellectual. You are reading things into her post that just aren’t there.

As for your last rant against feminism… well, that is a very valid rant depending on what you mean by feminism. From the other posts of litcrits that I have read, however, I am pretty sure it is not applicable to her or to what she means by feminism. 🤷
 
Not everything is about a patriarchal conspiracy. The arrangement became commonplace for a reason. What you enjoy now is the product of centuries of “patriarchy.” Without men obsessing over technology without the worry of chores we may very well still be in the stone age. In a majority of cases women feel more inclined to tend to the children because they want to, not because of patriarchy. You may be an exception but that doesn’t mean the old system was “bad” or “wrong.” No system is perfect.
Without Ada Lovelace, we wouldn’t be typing this 🙂

I see the very lack of proper respect for SAHMs (and, by extension, also SAHDs) as a consequence of patriarchy, too. The jobs that have been traditionally done by women, such as childcare, are so often looked down on. It’s wrong and unfair.

I urge you to try and find a single post I have ever made in which I deprecated SAHMs.
Also, thank you for the typical feminist insult to us stay at home moms that we are not intellectual. I guess since your husband stays at home you don’t see him as an intellectual. That’s the ugly face of feminism. Backhanded insults to justify the female ego. Few stay at home moms isolate themselves to contact with the kids only. Who do you think does all the school trip chaperoning and PTA stuff? Whose driving YOUR kids around because you are too busy? Who do you think is researching / making phone calls about family financial planning etc? Whose learning about nutrition / health issues so the family stays well? Yeah us “unintellectual” SAHMs!
Wow. First, I apologize for using “stimulation” where I actually wanted to use “stimulating interaction.” I used “intellectual” in the sense of “pertaining to the intellect,” not as a value judgment.

Some humans need to talk to other humans about subjects that interest them intellectually. Others don’t and prefer to, say, read and write in private. This has much less to do with one’s level of intellectual competence than it does with personality traits such as extroversion/introversion. One of my most brilliant male friends tends to see other people only once a week or even once a month, for example. He does not need intellectual interaction with others, as he prefers to work on his own.

My husband is an introvert and enjoys spending time at home. It certainly does not mean he’s “not an intellectual.”

My job allows me to spend several hours every week discussing issues that greatly interest me with other people. As an extrovert, I find this stimulating and re-energizing.

Let’s put the shoe on the other foot: I could say “thank you for the typical SAHM insult to us working moms that someone else is driving OUR kids around and caring for them because WE’RE too busy for them,” but only to show how stereotypes hurt people, including SAHM/WOHM stereotypes. I will only say that your stereotyping of me and my family life is not a good representation of our reality.
I dabbled with a little feminism in college and those girls were anything but respecting of men. Men don’t need feminism to be respected. No guy I have met feels feminism did him any good. If I was still a feminist I wouldn’t be married to my husband. In fact feminism does quite the opposite and today’s brand of feminism makes sacraments out abortion and contraception. I think its naive to use that label and think it has any good motives behind it.
Feminism, according to most dictionaries, means “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.” Why wouldn’t one be a feminist?

Every label, especially a label that has been around for a while, has different ideas and different humans holding these ideas under its umbrella.

The Westboro Baptist Church, for instance, labels itself “Christian” 🤷
 
Without Ada Lovelace, we wouldn’t be typing this 🙂
You cannot prove that. Things have a tendency to evolve naturally to fulfill needs. In fact many women were influential in founding the US. Betsy Ross anyone? We wouldn’t have the stars and stripes without her. Her contribution to our country was just as important as GW’s.
I see the very lack of proper respect for SAHMs (and, by extension, also SAHDs) as a consequence of patriarchy, too. The jobs that have been traditionally done by women, such as childcare, are so often looked down on. It’s wrong and unfair.
The looking down of parenting is a result of materialism which feminism has had no problems continuing. When I was a card carrying feminist we constantly got lectures on how careers are more important than kids and the only way for women to win. At least under the “patriarchy” men made an attempt to give us what we needed to do our job. These days many just stick to the bachelor life or don’t want kids.
I urge you to try and find a single post I have ever made in which I deprecated SAHMs.

Wow. First, I apologize for using “stimulation” where I actually wanted to use “stimulating interaction.” I used “intellectual” in the sense of “pertaining to the intellect,” not as a value judgment.

Some humans need to talk to other humans about subjects that interest them intellectually. Others don’t and prefer to, say, read and write in private. This has much less to do with one’s level of intellectual competence than it does with personality traits such as extroversion/introversion. One of my most brilliant male friends tends to see other people only once a week or even once a month, for example. He does not need intellectual interaction with others, as he prefers to work on his own.

My husband is an introvert and enjoys spending time at home. It certainly does not mean he’s “not an intellectual.”

My job allows me to spend several hours every week discussing issues that greatly interest me with other people. As an extrovert, I find this stimulating and re-energizing.
That is a complete cop out. Every human being needs to socialize with others and SAHM’s do quite a bit of that. Sure some need less engagement than others but SAHM’s are no different that the working kind. I used to work up until 2 months ago and my life hasn’t changed much other than I don’t have an unappreciative boss riding me. My kids adore me and the group I joined provides all the intellectual exchange and thensome that I got at work.
Let’s put the shoe on the other foot: I could say “thank you for the typical SAHM insult to us working moms that someone else is driving OUR kids around and caring for them because WE’RE too busy for them,” but only to show how stereotypes hurt people, including SAHM/WOHM stereotypes. I will only say that your stereotyping of me and my family life is not a good representation of our reality.
Since your husband takes care of the family it obviously doesn’t apply to you but there are many families with 2 working parents for which it does. My statement was an observation. Your comment about intellectualism was a judgement. There is a difference.
Feminism, according to most dictionaries, means “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.” Why wouldn’t one be a feminist?

Every label, especially a label that has been around for a while, has different ideas and different humans holding these ideas under its umbrella.

The Westboro Baptist Church, for instance, labels itself “Christian” 🤷
It doesn’t matter what the dictionary says if in practice people don’t follow it. We have laws but not everyone follows them due to ego / hubris. The Westboro Baptist Church however is such a minuscule force that it is not representative of Christianity. I think they are lucky if they have 100 followers out of the billions of Christians worldwide. They are just a bunch of big mouths that the media likes to use when they have nothing better to report on.

Feminism however is pretty much the same no matter where you go. Abortion and contraception are their main talking points. Disagree with these 2 and you almost certainly will incur the wrath of feminism. Most of feminism is completely hostile towards the Catholic church especially with the no women priests thing. They just don’t like the idea a woman can’t rise to the Popehood and overturn the contraception ban.

I could go on about what those women I associated with thought about men but I’d rather not take a stroll on that path again. They thought every man wanted to rape them and every man was an oppressor that needed to be under their “guidance.” (read control) Thanks to many (but not all) the laws they’ve enacted, men have to be afraid of being around women b/c they might get wrongly accused of something and end up with a record. Here is a perfect example of that (ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/1228.html). I told my son to avoid being alone with girls at all cost and don’t get personal with them at least until he is well established and has people that can vouch for him. I would be extremely upset if some poorly parented girl thought my son was her ticket to attention and fame. I’m sorry but feminism has turned into a “lets get even and then some party” for a large majority of feminists. That is the difference between feminism and the Westboro Baptist Church.
 
I am not interested in mommy (or daddy) wars. I have never deprecated a woman (or a man) for the choices made in balancing family life with surviving in this world.

I do wish there were more choices available, both for men and women, but it is a completely separate matter.

I am not sure we can have a constructive dialog if you put words in my mouth and then say my clarification of what I actually think is a “complete cop out.”

Some jobs are boring, draining, and exploitative, some aren’t. Some circumstances in which stay at home parents find themselves offer opportunities to verbally communicate with like-minded adults, some don’t. My husband and I have both been on both sides and have found what works for us both.

If you feel happy, thankful, and blessed in your life with your family and I feel happy, thankful, and blessed in mine, then, ultimately, that’s what matters, at least to me.

Peace and God bless.
 
I am not interested in mommy (or daddy) wars. I have never deprecated a woman (or a man) for the choices made in balancing family life with surviving in this world.

I do wish there were more choices available, both for men and women, but it is a completely separate matter.

I am not sure we can have a constructive dialog if you put words in my mouth and then say my clarification of what I actually think is a “complete cop out.”

Some jobs are boring, draining, and exploitative, some aren’t. Some circumstances in which stay at home parents find themselves offer opportunities to verbally communicate with like-minded adults, some don’t. My husband and I have both been on both sides and have found what works for us both.

If you feel happy, thankful, and blessed in your life with your family and I feel happy, thankful, and blessed in mine, then, ultimately, that’s what matters, at least to me.

Peace and God bless.
I am not interested in parent wars either but in all honest feminism and patriarchy and 2 sides of the same coin. Why can you define feminism as a positive but leave no room for patriarchy as a positive? The Catholic Church is a patriarchy but there is a clear difference between how its used in the Church and how its used in Iran for instance.

“A philosophy of constant feminism doesn’t give the woman the dignity she deserves. … It runs the risk of becoming machismo in skirts.”

Pope Francis I
 
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