Would you join a Crusade?

[mschrank]

Good luck with your pacifism.

I’m not really sure how Pacifists would think history would have turned out if the Crusades never happened (which they seem to be against, given that the Church blessed them and gave Crusaders plenary indulgences).

I guess they think that:

a) The Mohammedans would be just so awed by how darn nice Christians were! They’d stop sacking the cities and burning the Churches and fall on their knees, curse Mohammed and convert immediately.

b) Giant boulders would fall out of the sky (think “Left Behind”) and destroy the Mohammedan hordes. Or perhaps tornadoes, wild bears, dinosaurs, lol. Who knows…

Alien spaceships from the planet Kolob would intervene on Christendom’s behalf? Oh wait, I’ve confused pacifism for another lunacy…!

 

[jedi]

don’t ask too much. where to join? alrite…

american crusade? euro crusade? asia crusade? i think the future will be asia… because european are so weak, they even can’t defend their root, their faith in the end they go to other dark side faith…

may the force be with you

 

[goofyjim]

In all honesty, I really don’t care what you think. I believe you are wrong on so many points I will not begin to name them all.

Your logic does not make any sense.

You criticize an opinion then venerate your own. I didn’t realize your opinion = gospel.

I’m not going to bother replying to your fallacious rhetoric anymore as it is obvious your statements stretch well beyond hypocritical opinion and dwell on the absurdly arrogant.

Good luck with your pacifism.

Edit: and BTW, the poll is not a vote, therefore your reference to the Church being a democracy is another example of your problems. It is an opinion poll. We’re not voting. I suppose the is supposed to make it a “joke” but I, personally, find nothing funny about your attitude.

The Church is not a democracy. But why post an opinion poll and denigrate opinions other than those considered to be the only moral ones on an issue such as this? These should all be considered equal opinions. Otherwise the poll should never have been started.

 

[TemplarKnight]

The Church is not a democracy. But why post an opinion poll and denigrate opinions other than those considered to be the only moral ones on an issue such as this? These should all be considered equal opinions. Otherwise the poll should never have been started.

No one persons opinion matters over another. However, it’s about relevance. If you are not a LR Catholic under the authority of the Holy See in Rome, then the pole does not apply to you. That is why opinions can be “denigrated”.

It would be analogous to me responding to a poll on a mormon belief. I’m not mormon, therefore my “opinion” does not hold weight when it comes to their doctrine.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

In all honesty, I really don’t care what you think. I believe you are wrong on so many points I will not begin to name them all.

I believe you’re bluffing.

Your logic does not make any sense.

Then point out fallacies so I might answer them.

You criticize an opinion then venerate your own. I didn’t realize your opinion = gospel.

Why would I hold an opinion that I thought to be inaccurate? Is that really an opinion worth holding? Seriously, when you claim to ‘know’ how God would call for a war, without substantiation, you should at least show a little respect for my attempt to substantiate mine opinions.

I’m not going to bother replying to your fallacious rhetoric anymore as it is obvious your statements stretch well beyond hypocritical opinion and dwell on the absurdly arrogant.

Says the man willing to kill because he is certain that “God wills it”. We’ll each stick to our own definitions of arrogance, I suppose.

Good luck with your pacifism.

I can tell you mean it.

Edit: and BTW, the poll is not a vote, therefore your reference to the Church being a democracy is another example of your problems. It is an opinion poll. We’re not voting. I suppose the is supposed to make it a “joke” but I, personally, find nothing funny about your attitude.

You said that the ‘truth is reflected by a large margin’ in the poll.

What else am I to conclude except that you are appealing to the majority as an authority to substantiate your opinion?

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’m not really sure how Pacifists would think history would have turned out if the Crusades never happened (which they seem to be against, given that the Church blessed them and gave Crusaders plenary indulgences).

I’m not a backward-looking prophet, and I cannot change the past. I just try not to repeat its fallacies.

I guess they think that:

a) The Mohammedans would be just so awed by how darn nice Christians were! They’d stop sacking the cities and burning the Churches and fall on their knees, curse Mohammed and convert immediately.

There is a quote from Ottoman Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent; pointing across the Bosporus, he said, “There are the lands of the Christians, where they kill each other in the name of the Son of God”.

I think our example has a lot to do with how our religion is perceived and, therefore, accepted by the unbeliever.

b) Giant boulders would fall out of the sky (think “Left Behind”) and destroy the Mohammedan hordes. Or perhaps tornadoes, wild bears, dinosaurs, lol. Who knows…

Who does know? I suppose God does.

Alien spaceships from the planet Kolob would intervene on Christendom’s behalf? Oh wait, I’ve confused pacifism for another lunacy…!

Yep, we’re all crazy. How am I supposed to reply to this; its a personal insult, no more.

 

[goofyjim]

No one persons opinion matters over another. However, it’s about relevance. If you are not a LR Catholic under the authority of the Holy See in Rome, then the pole does not apply to you. That is why opinions can be “denigrated”.

It would be analogous to me responding to a poll on a mormon belief. I’m not mormon, therefore my “opinion” does not hold weight when it comes to their doctrine.

And apparently if you are LR Catholic there is no room for “opinion”. So again why introduce the poll? Someone actually had the audacity to say that pacifists should be put in the looney bin. Christian charity forbids me from responding to this the way I would want to.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Thanks for your posts goofyjim. To the point of his that you quoted:

I suppose I never did reply to that. And I can reply in exactly the way that I wish.

If you are not a LR Catholic under the authority of the Holy See in Rome, then the pole does not apply to you.

. . .]

It would be analogous to me responding to a poll on a mormon belief. I’m not mormon, therefore my “opinion” does not hold weight when it comes to their doctrine.

Why do you insist on treating Eastern Rite Catholics as if we are not as “fully Catholic” as you are, comparing us (audaciously) to MORMONS?!!

Minime, audax - fratres fide sumus.

Either I am a Catholic whose interpretation of the Catholic faith carries as much weight as one of the Latin Rite, or I am a second-class citizen of a Church which is apparently not Universal, and ought to join the Orthodox.

Which is it?

 

[TemplarKnight]

And apparently if you are LR Catholic there is no room for “opinion”.

How can you opine if the subject in question does not apply to you?

So again why introduce the poll?

For actual LR Catholics

Someone Name Names.

actually had the audacity to say that pacifists should be put in the looney bin. Christian charity forbids me from responding to this the way I would want to.

 

[TemplarKnight]

Why do you insist on treating Eastern Rite Catholics as if we are not as “fully Catholic” as you are, comparing us (audaciously) to MORMONS?!!

Because you are responding to a poll pointed specifically at those who fall under the auspices of the Pope, the Bishop of Rome. Then you have the audacity to criticize those that are under the Pontiff’s direction then criticize how we respond. THAT is why I am treating you like you are not “fully Catholic.”

The mormon reference was not meant as a slight, but more as a universal recognition. If that comparison is too brash, then may I recommend you not take it that way.

Minime, audax - fratres fide sumus.

Is quisnam est non me est obviam mihi Luke 11:23 DR

Either I am a Catholic whose interpretation of the Catholic faith carries as much weight as one of the Latin Rite, or I am a second-class citizen of a Church which is apparently not Universal, and ought to join the Orthodox.

Which is it?

The question lies with your answer to the following. Do you or do you not follow the Pope, the Bishop of Rome?

 

[holdencaulfield]

Either I am a Catholic whose interpretation of the Catholic faith carries as much weight as one of the Latin Rite, or I am a second-class citizen of a Church which is apparently not Universal, and ought to join the Orthodox.

I don’t know why someone would say that. All Catholics are equal regardless of rite. In fact the early crusades called all Christians to battle. Regardless of your rite you are 100% Catholic by my book and the Church’s.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Because you are responding to a poll pointed specifically at those who fall under the auspices of the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.

Do I not, as an Eastern Catholic, fall under the auspices of Rome? Or is he no longer head of the Universal Church?

Then you have the audacity to criticize those that are under the Pontiff’s direction then criticize how we respond. THAT is why I am treating you like you are not “fully Catholic.”

Hence, I am a second class citizen as, not being as directly under the Universal Primate, I am somehow instantly rendered deficient and unworthy to comment tenets on the same Faith that we all share.

At least we’ve both established that I am being treated in a manner lacking the dignity which ought be afforded a brother Catholic, not to mention a brother Christian.

The mormon reference was not meant as a slight, but more as a universal recognition. If that comparison is too brash, then may I recommend you not take it that way.

Recommendation noted.

That being duly noted, regardless of whether you ask for it, I forgive you for your disrespect, beg forgiveness of any I have shown in turn, and will mention that disrespect no more in this discussion.

 

[TemplarKnight]

And for those of you who read this in my previous post:

The question lies with your answer to the following. Do you or do you not follow the Pope, the Bishop of Rome?

and want to point out that that is the case, it’s called a rhetorical question.

I am well aware that under the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, the Roman Pontiff (the Pope) enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise. The full description is under Title 3, Canons 42 to 54 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

So I refer back to Luke 11:23

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

So I refer back to Luke 11:23:

"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters."

This is pertinent how?

 

[goofyjim]

Well I am a LR Catholic and mschrank made the comment of looney bin which was totally uncalled for.

 

[TemplarKnight]

"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters."

This is pertinent how?

If we interjected “us” instead of “me” would it become clearer that if we are given a directive by the Pope, and you choose not to follow it because you do not recognize its legitimacy or morality, then hence, you are against us.

If it’s been a while since you’ve read Revelations, let me let you in on the gist of the book. It’s the good guys versus the bad guys. The good guys win, but not without a fight. If you choose to sit idly by while others do the fighting, that is your prerogative. But don’t criticize those that choose to fight in the name of Jesus Christ, GOD, and the Church.

 

[TemplarKnight]

Well I am a LR Catholic and mschrank made the comment of looney bin which was totally uncalled for.

Agreed against you, warranted against the mormons.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

If we interjected “us” instead of “me” would it become clearer that if we are given a directive by the Pope, and you choose not to follow it because you do not recognize its legitimacy or morality, then hence, you are against us.

Don’t you think that’s a *little *bit too much exegesis? I mean, a house divided over a temporal issue like war is not the same as a house divided over spiritual issues. Unless, of course, you wish to move war into an almost sacramental realm, whether or not we fight, come day’s end we believe in One God in Three Persons, are in Sacramental Communion with another and, spiritually, could not be more steadfastly united.

If it’s been a while since you’ve read Revelations, let me let you in on the gist of the book. It’s the good guys versus the bad guys. The good guys win, but not without a fight. If you choose to sit idly by while others do the fighting, that is your prerogative. But don’t criticize those that choose to fight in the name of Jesus Christ, GOD, and the Church.

As I recall, Christ also physically returns to Earth in Revelations. This has yet to happen. Ergo, these aforesaid wars (of which the Crusades were obviously, being nearly a millenium ago, not a part) are not the topic of our discussion; nor is it evident that the next Crusade will be the battle of Armageddon.

 

[TemplarKnight]

Don’t you think that’s a *little *bit too much exegesis? I mean, a house divided over a temporal issue like war is not the same as a house divided over spiritual issues. Unless, of course, you wish to move war into an almost sacramental realm, whether or not we fight, come day’s end we believe in One God in Three Persons, are in Sacramental Communion with another and, spiritually, could not be more steadfastly united.

As I recall, Christ also physically returns to Earth in Revelations. This has yet to happen. Ergo, these aforesaid wars (of which the Crusades were obviously, being nearly a millenium ago, not a part) are not the topic of our discussion; nor is it evident that the next Crusade will be the battle of Armageddon.

The point I have orbited around during this entire tirade is that of context. It’s not a testament to war in general, it’s not a fray over spiritual issues. It is a discussion about fighting for your faith under a set of specific directions and circumstances pertaining to a highly improbable and extremely unlikely turn of events. It’s stretched out into a general malay of unnecessary bickering that is not only useless but jerks us from the realm of distinct and definite criteria, to one of broad and amorphous turgidity. Is anyone else gaining apathy for this entire thread?

On that note, I am going to retire for the evening. GOD Bless.

 

[goofyjim]

Agreed against you, warranted against the mormons.

It lacks charity to say anyone should be in the looney bin.