Would you like the old Papal crowning ceremony brought back?

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JosephdeMaistre said:
Romans 13:1-7

1 Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.

6 For therefore also you pay tribute. For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. 7 Render therefore to all men their dues. Tribute, to whom tribute is due: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honour, to whom honour.
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This is not an endorsement of monarchy, either, on it’s face. “Prince” is derived from “*Princeps,” *which, prior to the Roman Empire, simply meant “first citizen,” whose powers could be narrow or broad, according to the mandate given them by the Senate of Rome and for what length of time (and indeed, the princeps was seen as primer inter pares with the Senate, “first among equals of that body.” At the time St. Paul wrote this, the Senate still LEGALLY determined who was Emperor (*Imperator, *not rex) and COULD have dispensed with the office (in reality, the military could make or break an emperor).

The passage you quote would seem to support the idea of obedience to any authority that holds its power legitimately (I hope the caveat “legitimately” is there).
 
JosephdeMaistre said:
One man at the top who carries Divine Right, given his authority from God himself. What do you call that system?
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Well, I wouldn’t call it a monarchy. After all, though it was once believed (especially by those who ruled) that monarchs received their right from God, they, in fact, didn’t. The Pope is called by the Holy Spirit to lead the people of God. This is a distinct difference between kings and popes. Catholics tend to call this particular governing system we participate in a “Church.” As others have mentioned, the Church is not a democracy, but neither is it a tyranny and neither is it ruled according to personal whim of the Pope. There is an element to Church rule which is by necessity spiritual. This is not the case with monarchy.
 
Tsuwano said:
Well, I wouldn’t call it a monarchy. After all, though it was once believed (especially by those who ruled) that monarchs received their right from God, they, in fact, didn’t. The Pope is called by the Holy Spirit to lead the people of God. This is a distinct difference between kings and popes. Catholics tend to call this particular governing system we participate in a “Church.” As others have mentioned, the Church is not a democracy, but neither is it a tyranny and neither is it ruled according to personal whim of the Pope. There is an element to Church rule which is by necessity spiritual. This is not the case with monarchy.
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Not every monarchy is a tyranny. Why would the Popes have crowned tyrants?

Read some Machiavelli and he might dissuade you from the presumption that all monarchs are tyrants. Oftentimes, they are more just than the mob.
 
JosephdeMaistre said:
Not every monarchy is a tyranny. Why would the Popes have crowned tyrants?

Read some Machiavelli and he might dissuade you from the presumption that all monarchs are tyrants. Oftentimes, they are more just than the mob.
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I didn’t say every monarchy is a tyranny, though some have been. I don’t believe most monarchies in the world today, including the British monarchy, is tyrannical. I do think that any form of government in which one person presumes that he or she has a divine right to rule has the potential to be tyrannical. I think this is also true of the papacy and take comfort in the fact that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. I don’t know why popes would have crowned tyrants, though I think they have. I don’t think Napoleon, for example, was a paragon of democracy. Though I have read Machiavelli, more than once in fact, I have no need to be dissuaded that all monarchs are tyrants because I have never stated that I believe all monarchs are tyrants. I think you should read my previous post more carefully.
 
Marie5890 said:
Don’t hold your breath. 😉
Can’t imagine it’s even under consideration by the Vatican to be honest. I think it’s more of a pipe dream of some who like the idea. 🙂
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Actually it was never abolished… Pope paul just took his tiara off and put it on the altar and JPI decided that he didnt want to be crowned and so did JPII and BXVI… the option remains open to anyone who wants to do it.
 
VetA said:
Actually it was never abolished… Pope paul just took his tiara off and put it on the altar and JPI decided that he didnt want to be crowned and so did JPII and BXVI… the option remains open to anyone who wants to do it.
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Correct. Furthermore, any Pope can change the laws governing his own dress whenever he wants.
 
Revs96 said:
Given how the Church has been developing for the last decade or two, I wouldn’t doubt this for a second. I would certainly be crowned in the EF if I was elected, but that won’t happen for at least 4 decades.😉
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yeah it will take a while becasue we need to get through a generation or two of cardinals who are well meaning men for the most part but just dont have the experiance of the Church prior to V-II that tthe last couple popes have had, so naturally it just wont be part of their repertoire…after that though, watch out it may come back with surprising strenght(any traditions i mean not just this)
 
As much as I want the Pope Benedict’s successor to be crowned, the chances of that happening are slim 😦
 
First post!

I’ve read this whole thread, and I’ve been intrigued by the intelligent posts supporting both sides. I personally would like to see the return of the Triregnum. If there should continue this disuse of it, should we also therefore see to the disuse of the regnal names and ordinals of the popes, symbols undeniably connected to monarchies?
 
No, I hope it doesn’t make a return. I can’t see what good it would do at all and I think it would be extremely off-putting to many others who are close to leaving the Church or close to coming in.
 
YoungTradCath said:
First post!

I’ve read this whole thread, and I’ve been intrigued by the intelligent posts supporting both sides. I personally would like to see the return of the Triregnum. If there should continue this disuse of it, should we also therefore see to the disuse of the regnal names and ordinals of the popes, symbols undeniably connected to monarchies?
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Actually, while we might CALL them regnal names, the name change is due to Pope John II’s (sixth century) decision to change his name from Mercurius (derived from Mercury, a pagan god) to a Christian name. So I don’t believe the practice is tied to any monarchical custom, though some may have the same policy.

I’ve always thought that the papacy’s “power” (really, a better word would be “authority”) was made more obvious in its gentleness, the whole shepherd thing (Paul’s statement “His strength is made perfect in my weakness” rings for me). I’m not putting it well, but in The Cardinal, a novel, there’s a scene where King Victor Emmanuel and Mussolinni have come to an audience with the Pope (the great Pius XI, of eternal memory). The authority/“power” of the papacy is truly seen in how the author constructs the scene (and you must pardon the paraphrase, I regret I’ve misplaced my copy):

“So the King knelt and Il Duce uncovered before a frail old man in red slippers standing on an invisible rock.”
 
Link0126 said:
No, I hope it doesn’t make a return. I can’t see what good it would do at all and I think it would be extremely off-putting to many others who are close to leaving the Church or close to coming in.
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Sounds like a personal problem of those people, something so small influencing a decision of such magnitude in their lives.
 
Benedict may bring it back, he’s brought some other old traditions back…I for one, like the papal crown. We should definatly bring it back!
👍
 
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