Would you like the old Papal crowning ceremony brought back?

[At_Trent]

Here is an image crowning God with a tiara http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YtYKuDvkXWU/S3RSc2V3yKI/AAAAAAAAAlc/Av0aI_ltjAM/s512/Trinity-6-top.jpg

I’d be happy if we’d just put the Crown back on Our Saviors head.

 

[Marie5890]

It would appear that those who want it to come back have had no contact with Europeans - ex Catholics, Protestants and the secularists, who have far longer memories than people here have information.

Certainly not all of the problems over the last 1000 years in Europe are due to the temporal powers that various popes and their entourages exercised. But much of what we pass off as theological issues are far deeper rooted in temproal power issues and the “sides” they caused. We have more than enough clericalism in the clergy as it is today; we don’t need to engage in activities which fan the flames of further dissent, anger, hatred, and further regurgitation of issues that need to stay dead and buried. It was not for no reason that John Paul 2 issued the apologies he did.

The US is blessed with very short memories, with the possible exception of those who still want to get heated over the Civil War. We are blessed with a short history and relatively few other squabbles that ended up in bloodshed (with the exception perhaps of how we treated the Indians as we spread out from the East Coast). Europe not so, and im msot of the wars, the Church, rightly or wrongly took sides. Memories are much longer there than here and have all too much fodder as it is. No reason to feed it further.

Otjm, thanks for that reality check and history lesson. I myself am American and recently have come into full communion with the Church.

I have very little knowledge of the factual history of the papacy thru centuries.
It is easy to romantisize and become ungrounded when one doesnt possess facts.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Revs96]

Given the level of dissent that exists today within the Church and how governments think they are better than the Church, I want to see the coronation come back. It would send a powerful message about being obedient to the Church and her moral and liturgical teachings.
Also, since the Pope is the presence of the King of kings on Earth, he should wear a crown.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No, the Holy Father doesn’t need a crown. Pope Paul VI chose wisely.

 

[Marie5890]

It would send a powerful message about being obedient to the Church and her moral and liturgical teachings.

It could also send the message of arrogance, pompousness and smugness. The antithisis of what Christ is.

It’s not a given that the message that one is wanting to send is the one being that ends up being received. They can be completely different. That is why diplomacy is considered an artform.

 

[Erin_Anne]

What are your views on the Papal Coronation? Would you like to see it brought back? I think the Pope looks good in the old liturgical regalia. What do you think?

As Traditional as I am - I’m going to go with a heck no on this one.

 

[gmcbroom]

Uh folks I don’t quite understand brought back? I was under the impression it never left. I’m actually not joking. He may not where the crown, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the power. It may sound ignorant but I believe its still true. After all, since its true that Jesus gave Peter his power. Then it stands to reason that Benedict the 16th has it as well. He either doesn’t believe it (Lucifer is a masterful trickster probably had his hands in that) or chooses not to use it on purpose. Its food for thought.

 

[Victorious]

Bring back the tiara. Renouncing a symbol of papal authority was a bad move at a time when the Church was being stricken by confusion and subversion from within. I think such a move created the appearance of hesitancy and lack of confidence at the very top of the hierarchy. I can’t help contrasting it with Pope Pius XII’s assumption of the tiara. In his book Portrait of Pius XII, Nazareno Padellaro describes it aptly:

Pius XII received the tiara as though it were a helmet, for Europe was in arms.

And the Church is still wracked by assaults from without, but especially from within. I say, bring back the trappings of authority, and reinforce the message that the authority has not fled.

However, Paul VI’s very ugly, bullet-shaped and rinky-dink-looking tiara can stay in mothballs as far as I’m concerned.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Papal_Tiara.jpg/450px-Paul_VI_Papal_Tiara.jpg

 

[Brian777]

I agree with the above post…

and yes as Traditional as i am i will go with a HELL YES!

although i dont see it happening for about two or three more popes.

Benedict wouldve been the man to do it if he had wanted to, but after him the next pope or two will be from that generation of cardinals who either do not want such stuffy traditions at all, or simply dont remmebr it other than as young boys, or perhaps seminarians for the youngest ones…after that though, once a cardinal who is from my generation, as it is looking for more trditions like this much more so than the older ones, is elected it may very well have a chance of coming back…but not for a good while…

 

[Revs96]

I agree with the above post…

and yes as Traditional as i am i will go with a HELL YES!

although i dont see it happening for about two or three more popes.

Benedict wouldve been the man to do it if he had wanted to, but after him the next pope or two will be from that generation of cardinals who either do not want such stuffy traditions at all, or simply dont remmebr it other than as young boys, or perhaps seminarians for the youngest ones…after that though, once a cardinal who is from my generation, as it is looking for more trditions like this much more so than the older ones, is elected it may very well have a chance of coming back…but not for a good while…

Given how the Church has been developing for the last decade or two, I wouldn’t doubt this for a second. I would certainly be crowned in the EF if I was elected, but that won’t happen for at least 4 decades.

 

[Lypher]

Bring back the tiara. Renouncing a symbol of papal authority was a bad move at a time when the Church was being stricken by confusion and subversion from within. I think such a move created the appearance of hesitancy and lack of confidence at the very top of the hierarchy. I can’t help contrasting it with Pope Pius XII’s assumption of the tiara. In his book Portrait of Pius XII, Nazareno Padellaro describes it aptly:

And the Church is still wracked by assaults from without, but especially from within. I say, bring back the trappings of authority, and reinforce the message that the authority has not fled.

However, Paul VI’s very ugly, bullet-shaped and rinky-dink-looking tiara can stay in mothballs as far as I’m concerned.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Papal_Tiara.jpg/450px-Paul_VI_Papal_Tiara.jpg

Unfortunately it looks like a Fabergé Egg of some kind… or a lampshade…but not something you wear… Oh well I still don’t like the Nationalistic Symbolism of a Crowning. It seems to be a very Earthly and imperialistic function of a State that would get caught up in governing more then teaching… Maybe we should have a graduation ceremony or some kind of conference acknowledging the supreme Teacher, but not a ruler??

God Bless You…

 

[peary]

Absolutely not. The Papal States do not exist anymore.

 

[Lypher]

Absolutely not. The Papal States do not exist anymore.

I think the Church is far better off not having the National trappings or having to deal with the Politics.

God Bless You…

 

[peary]

Bring back the tiara. Renouncing a symbol of papal authority was a bad move at a time when the Church was being stricken by confusion and subversion from within. I think such a move created the appearance of hesitancy and lack of confidence at the very top of the hierarchy. I can’t help contrasting it with Pope Pius XII’s assumption of the tiara. In his book Portrait of Pius XII, Nazareno Padellaro describes it aptly:

And the Church is still wracked by assaults from without, but especially from within. I say, bring back the trappings of authority, and reinforce the message that the authority has not fled.

However, Paul VI’s very ugly, bullet-shaped and rinky-dink-looking tiara can stay in mothballs as far as I’m concerned.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Papal_Tiara.jpg/450px-Paul_VI_Papal_Tiara.jpg

It looks like a beehive.

 

[Layman]

I say do it. It would annoy the right sort of people.

 

[Onegin]

I wish they’d bring back the Papal Tiara AND the Papal States!

And, honestly, why all the fear about what the “outside world” thinks? Who cares! The Church didn’t seem so concerned with the misguided opinions of the modern world until, oh, the past 40 years or so…

 

[Victorious]

Oh well I still don’t like the Nationalistic Symbolism of a Crowning. It seems to be a very Earthly and imperialistic function of a State that would get caught up in governing more then teaching… Maybe we should have a graduation ceremony or some kind of conference acknowledging the supreme Teacher, but not a ruler??

Absolutely not. The Papal States do not exist anymore.

Well, I disagree that it is nationalistic and imperialistic, or even purely earthly. Jesus is often depicted wearing a crown. The tiara isn’t a symbol of nationalism, but of authority. Symbols are powerful things. That’s why I’d like to see the use of the tiara to help reinforce the authority of Peter, which is so often flouted and defied.

Incidentally, the Papal States may not exist anymore as formerly constituted (having been wrongfully wrested from the Church), but the Pope is still a temporal ruler and head of state. This temporal power is maintained not for its own sake, but so that the Pope may preserve his independence.

And, honestly, why all the fear about what the “outside world” thinks? Who cares! The Church didn’t seem so concerned with the misguided opinions of the modern world until, oh, the past 40 years or so…

Ain’t THAT the truth!

 

[Hesychios]

No, I’m glad this isn’t practiced anymore. I’d prefer to see a few pictures of the Popes cleaning wounds off of sick folks and getting a little dirty, serving the beloved poor of God.

Exactly.

 

[Hesychios]

I wish they’d bring back the Papal Tiara AND the Papal States!

The coronation had nothing to do with Christ’s kingdom, it was for the Papal States. If you like that, that’s great.

… And, honestly, why all the fear about what the “outside world” thinks? Who cares! The Church didn’t seem so concerned with the misguided opinions of the modern world until, oh, the past 40 years or so…

Actually, one would have to ask the Italians about that. Their sovereign territory would be affected.

It’s not as though the Pope could just go and take New York State from the USA, or Old Castile from Spain. Bishops do not have the right to political power, it was always an abuse.

As it is, because Pio Nono opposed the unification of Italy, he became generally hated by Italians of his day. It’s a shame really, when he was elected Supreme Pontiff he was very popular among Italians. Later, they couldn’t wait to strip him of his royal possessions and had no sympathy for him or the church. The reputation of the Catholic church in Italy was badly damaged by this, and many people died in a war which was totally unnecessary.

At the time of Vatican Council I the city was ringed with Italian armies, guns pointed at the city. They were only held off from total victory by the French, who shortly had to leave to defend France in the Franco-Prussian war.

 

[Victorious]

Actually, one would have to ask the Italians about that. Their sovereign territory would be affected.

It’s not as though the Pope could just go and take New York State from the USA, or Old Castile from Spain. Bishops do not have the right to political power, it was always an abuse.

As it is, because Pio Nono opposed the unification of Italy, he became generally hated by Italians of his day. It’s a shame really, when he was elected Supreme Pontiff he was very popular among Italians. Later, they couldn’t wait to strip him of his royal possessions and had no sympathy for him or the church. The reputation of the Catholic church in Italy was badly damaged by this, and many people died in a war which was totally unnecessary.

At the time of Vatican Council I the city was ringed with Italian armies, guns pointed at the city. They were only held off from total victory by the French, who shortly had to leave to defend France in the Franco-Prussian war.

Aren’t you putting the cart before the horse? The Papal States were there first. The Church did not steal the territory from Italy; Italy stole it from the Church. In what sense was Pius IX not justified in trying to defend that which had been entrusted to him? On the contrary: he would have been most blameworthy. And the Italian government’s actions were blameworthy, even though now, in the after-light, we can clearly see that it was obviously God’s permissive will that the Church lose the Papal States, except for that small remnant she still retains.

But this thread is about whether the tiara should be restored as a token of papal authority, not whether the Church should have lost the Papal States. I continue to maintain that in these confused times, the tiara should be brought back.