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Augustinian
Guest
I think you are grossly overestimating the number of severely disabled individuals among we in the elderly community
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CilladeRoma
Guest
It is not just the elderly.
I am under 50, and most times cannot kneel.
There are many other reasons why kneeling is not an option besides age.
And sometimes, as in my case, kneeling isn’t the issue, it’s the getting up.
Why is this OP even a question? It is the church herself who said kneeling to receive is no longer required.(in the US, at least).
Why are some people so intent on insisting that outward expressions hold more weight than inward disposition?
I am under 50, and most times cannot kneel.
There are many other reasons why kneeling is not an option besides age.
And sometimes, as in my case, kneeling isn’t the issue, it’s the getting up.
Why is this OP even a question? It is the church herself who said kneeling to receive is no longer required.(in the US, at least).
Why are some people so intent on insisting that outward expressions hold more weight than inward disposition?
S
stpurl
Guest
Hi. . .
I don’t think it’s an either-or, I think it’s a both-and.
I think that outward and inward disposition should match up.
All things considered, a kneeling posture by definition does indicate a more humble and respectful disposition ‘outwardly’.
Now the thing is, to me, I wonder when and why all the ‘outward appearance’ was 'tossed away"?
It used to be the norm for Catholics to kneel for prayers (at home, in church). It used to be the norm to make the sign of the cross (at home, ‘outside the home’). It used to be the norm to say grace aloud (at home, outside the home). It used to be the norm to be ‘on the outside’ what one wished to be on the inside, and the ‘outside’ was supposed to help us remind ourselves, and others, of exactly that fact. . .humility, obedience, fidelity.
But then somehow somewhere someone decided that all those ‘outward signs’ were, I don’t know, somehow ‘hateful’. "Prideful’. "Unnecessary’ (now that we are equals with God you know). And the everlasting, "Holier-than-thou’ charge that anybody anywhere who wore a headcovering, knelt for prayer, prayed aloud, etc. was 'doing it to stand out, doing it for show, doing it for pride, and was disrespectful of all the incredibly wonderful people whose ‘love’ was all on the inside, where it ‘should be’.
Yep, the verdict was in. No longer were we to look for any outward signs of who we wished to be. And no longer were we to ‘judge’ or ‘assume’ that people who never demonstrated any Catholic trait save by showing up now and then for Mass, however they chose to act, whether in inappropriate clothing, by inappropriate talking, inappropriate actions, etc. did not, 'in their heart, inside have that humble attitude. Examples of Christ ‘sitting with the prostitutes’ and ‘never judging’, and charges of legalism and Pharisee-ism and ‘don’t you dare judge’ are thrown at those who might ‘appear’ to be demonstrating ‘more than the average person deems ‘appropriate’, whether it’s wearing a hat, showing up in a dress, praying a rosary after Mass on one’s knees, not choosing to run up and down the aisle shaking hands or grabbing hands at the Our Father’. . .
Oh, those horrible judgmental awful ‘outward’ people, they can be judged. They MUST be judged. They must be publicly derided, mocked, insulted, and made the villains for their purported insensitivity to others.
Now mind you, the majority of people here are fairly laid back and fairly reasonable. Most of the people here would no more dream of going up and starting to name call an old lady wearing a hat. Face to face, they’d be respectful to almost anybody.
But watch and see. On forums, even the most self-described, “it doesn’t bother ME if people wear flip flops or hats” will over time get more and more bothered with those ‘outward’ people. They’ll start to agree that yes, ‘those people’ are really a problem. That ‘those people’ (not of course the inward people) are the ones in danger of spiritual pride. That ‘those people’ are the troublemakers, the regressives, that anecdotes that ‘prove’ their hatefulness demonstrate that they ARE trouble.
It happens all the time. ALL the time.
I don’t think it’s an either-or, I think it’s a both-and.
I think that outward and inward disposition should match up.
All things considered, a kneeling posture by definition does indicate a more humble and respectful disposition ‘outwardly’.
Now the thing is, to me, I wonder when and why all the ‘outward appearance’ was 'tossed away"?
It used to be the norm for Catholics to kneel for prayers (at home, in church). It used to be the norm to make the sign of the cross (at home, ‘outside the home’). It used to be the norm to say grace aloud (at home, outside the home). It used to be the norm to be ‘on the outside’ what one wished to be on the inside, and the ‘outside’ was supposed to help us remind ourselves, and others, of exactly that fact. . .humility, obedience, fidelity.
But then somehow somewhere someone decided that all those ‘outward signs’ were, I don’t know, somehow ‘hateful’. "Prideful’. "Unnecessary’ (now that we are equals with God you know). And the everlasting, "Holier-than-thou’ charge that anybody anywhere who wore a headcovering, knelt for prayer, prayed aloud, etc. was 'doing it to stand out, doing it for show, doing it for pride, and was disrespectful of all the incredibly wonderful people whose ‘love’ was all on the inside, where it ‘should be’.
Yep, the verdict was in. No longer were we to look for any outward signs of who we wished to be. And no longer were we to ‘judge’ or ‘assume’ that people who never demonstrated any Catholic trait save by showing up now and then for Mass, however they chose to act, whether in inappropriate clothing, by inappropriate talking, inappropriate actions, etc. did not, 'in their heart, inside have that humble attitude. Examples of Christ ‘sitting with the prostitutes’ and ‘never judging’, and charges of legalism and Pharisee-ism and ‘don’t you dare judge’ are thrown at those who might ‘appear’ to be demonstrating ‘more than the average person deems ‘appropriate’, whether it’s wearing a hat, showing up in a dress, praying a rosary after Mass on one’s knees, not choosing to run up and down the aisle shaking hands or grabbing hands at the Our Father’. . .
Oh, those horrible judgmental awful ‘outward’ people, they can be judged. They MUST be judged. They must be publicly derided, mocked, insulted, and made the villains for their purported insensitivity to others.
Now mind you, the majority of people here are fairly laid back and fairly reasonable. Most of the people here would no more dream of going up and starting to name call an old lady wearing a hat. Face to face, they’d be respectful to almost anybody.
But watch and see. On forums, even the most self-described, “it doesn’t bother ME if people wear flip flops or hats” will over time get more and more bothered with those ‘outward’ people. They’ll start to agree that yes, ‘those people’ are really a problem. That ‘those people’ (not of course the inward people) are the ones in danger of spiritual pride. That ‘those people’ are the troublemakers, the regressives, that anecdotes that ‘prove’ their hatefulness demonstrate that they ARE trouble.
It happens all the time. ALL the time.
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misstherese
Guest
I couldn’t agree more. It does happen often. I find it so strange when someone is given disdainful looks for not putting their hand to their heart for the pledge of the allegiance, out of respect for our country, but are likewise frowned upon for attempting to show respect by simply kneeling for Our King.
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Irishmom2
Guest
Nope, sounds like my parish. Majority are seniors in their 70s and 80s. Whole front row on both sides are people in wheel chairs, or with walkers or canes. Our priest brings them communion. Many others walk up the aisle but are slow moving…stpurl:
Sound like a congregation in a nursing home or an orthopedic ward
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EqualinHim
Guest
I personally can see why this would be a huge problem for some people. My friend, who is in her 20s, has a bunch of different health issues and wouldn’t be able to kneel. Heck, she probably gets a lot of stares for not kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer but she has severe hip issues, combined with endometriosis among several other things that cause her to be in near constant pain. Kneeling for any period would exacerbate it, I’m sure. I personally don’t care either way. If they bring back kneelers, I’ll use the kneelers. If not, fine by me.
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Augustinian
Guest
The Carpenters Union would certainly be interested in this kind of thing, building kneelers in churches can add up to a lot of work for their members.
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godisgood77
Guest
No, I would not like going back to kneeling for Communion
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pianistclare
Guest
I think that asking parishioners to attend classes on the Real Presence and have regular teaching Masses would do more for worthy reception of the Eucharist than any piece of sponge on a plank.
In the early church, no one ever knelt or sat. They stood. All the time. They considered the lowering of oneself to be a denial of the Resurrection.
Kneeling came much later, as did the altar rails (which were designed to keep people away from the Sanctuary).
As someone said, it’s the INWARD disposition that matters to God. A person can kneel and still harbor hate and sin in their heart, It’s no guarantees of piety.
In the early church, no one ever knelt or sat. They stood. All the time. They considered the lowering of oneself to be a denial of the Resurrection.
Kneeling came much later, as did the altar rails (which were designed to keep people away from the Sanctuary).
As someone said, it’s the INWARD disposition that matters to God. A person can kneel and still harbor hate and sin in their heart, It’s no guarantees of piety.
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Augustinian
Guest
Do you think that there is a lot of unworthy reception of the Eucharist out there?
I can agree with the idea that kneeling is no panacea for anything. There is no harm in asking people to attend religious education classes, but I can’t see requiring it as being very useful
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pnewton
Guest
What an intriguing concept, and not without precedent. A diocese may require formation classes for baptism, first communion and confirmation. There is nothing theologically wrong about having a continuing education program on the Eucharist. There could easily be some sort of mandated training for all Catholics in order to continue to receive the Eucharist, as long as they had the usual exceptions and accommodations.
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Irishmom2
Guest
mandated training for all Catholics in order to continue to receive the Eucharist,
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No, I don’t see how this would ever happen.
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pnewton
Guest
I agree that it is impractical, but it is possible, Canon 912 notwithstanding. I can actually see something like this might one day be possible and practical. Ideally, it would be easier just to mandate a series of homilies. We may head for a time where Catholics need to be taught en masse, as they have been in the past.
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Irishmom2
Guest
I mentioned elsewhere that our parish has been doing “teaching masses,” and they have been very informative and well received.
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anon64350612
Guest
They can just pull out all the kneelers that are currently shoved in the backs of the sacristies.
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babochka
Guest
You mean like the Mass? The liturgy itself is an excellent catechesis on the Eucharist, if you only listen to the prayers.
Having said that, I think that ongoing catechesis of adults is a critical need in the church.
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thistle
Guest
The Church does not require it. That should be enough for you.
Kneelers do not make anyone more or less pious, or more or less reverent, or more or less respectful, and they certainly don’t make anyone more or less sinful!!!
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Catfish
Guest
When I was young I received communion kneeling at the altar rail. It was a sacred time waiting in prayer for the communion Eucharist, also a thanksgiving prayer after its reception. Now it seems that there is no time for reverence when actually receiving the host. It is a “Move along, don’t hold up the line” feeling. So yes, I would definitely prefer kneeling at the alter rail to receive communion, even though it might be more difficult in my old age to bounce back up. Think I could handle that.
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paperwight
Guest
It’s funny, but having to hurry was exactly the feeling I used to get when kneeling at the altar-rail, as the next people were practically breathing down the necks of those kneeling because the priest was moving back and forth so quickly. I definitely don’t remember any time for a thanksgiving prayer.
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Ioana
Guest
I frequent two countries and thus two parishes. Whilst for most things and in a lot of ways I like my somewhat more modernistic English parish more (where the only option is to walk and receive in the hand, which is great and you can also get both species which is also great) but whenever I’m at home I try to sit up front so that I can get a chance to receive kneeling. In my home country, nobody touches the Host so I feel awkward standing and receiving here and I like kneeling in and of itself, it just feels more special.
That being said I hate kneelers. You know they usually have kneelers with pillows on them in confessionals? They just usually make my feet slip away. I quite like the stairs next to the altar rail and don’t feel like I need kneelers per se to kneel and receive.
So short answer from a somewhat selfish 15 year old self; personally, kneelers no, kneeling yes.
That being said I hate kneelers. You know they usually have kneelers with pillows on them in confessionals? They just usually make my feet slip away. I quite like the stairs next to the altar rail and don’t feel like I need kneelers per se to kneel and receive.
So short answer from a somewhat selfish 15 year old self; personally, kneelers no, kneeling yes.
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