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Miles_Mariae
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Oh yeah, I came to that conclusion a while ago and totally forgot. Good point, I agree that the NO should be kept around for that purpose.
Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
You should have heard Fr. John Corapi on Catholic radio this morning. He touched on the abuses of the Latin mass before VII. After he mentioned them, I remembered seeing some of them. They were there also. Whats that old saying, “To err is human. To forgive is divine”. Lets forgive all priests and pray for them. They, as well as all of us who are ordained need prayers. Please keep them coming.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Brian777
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God Bless your parish and diocese, and i love the fact that the Life teen mass has latin in it, that is amazing, but isnt their catechesis rather light?I don’t know where everyone on this thread lives. But so many posts on this thred make it sound as if the Catholic mass is going to hell in a hand basket, as if this is a universal experience. I’m just wondering how much is actually accurate, how much is the experience of some places and how much may be over reaction.
I have lived and worked in the the Diocese of Florence, Italy; the Archdiocese of Washingtonn, Dc; the Diocese of Arlington, VA; the Archdiocese of Guayaquil, Ecuador; the Archdiocese of San Juan, Pueto Rico; the Diocese of Arecibo, Puerto Rico, the Archdiocese of New York and the Archdiocese of Miami.
I not only lived in these dioceses, but was employed by them and have not seen all of these abuses. I saw liturgical dance once.
I have never seen anyone but the priest say the words of consecration, always the words as prescribed the sacramentary. I have only seen priests and deacons preach the sermon. I have seen extraordinary ministers of holy communion used in parishes where there are a thousand or more people at a mass with one priest. I have seen communion in the hand with great reverence. I have seen female altar servers without taking anything away from the liturgy and another diocese with only male altar servers. I have seen religious brothers give exhortations at the mass, but it was clearly understood that it was an exhortation and not a homily, such as when there is a visiting missionary that comes to ask for financial support for his mission. The priest will give him the opportunity to address the congregation.
I have seen liturgies integrate classical music and modern music very seamlessly.
I have seen only one church building where the original sanctuary was dismantled and remodeled. Which I felt was a pity, because it was very beautiful. But I have seen many where the original sanctuary was left intact and a new altar was built to fit the original architecture and it fit in seamlessly as if it has always been there. This I have seen in at least three parishes.
My current parish is a very simple church that was built 25-years ago. It has more of a chapel type architecture, which is very simple, not as ornate as the Romanesque or Gothic styles of European churches, but it’s very consistent with the religious order who built it. They are Capuchins. All of the churches that they build are very simple in design. If you look at the chapel on EWTN, that’s a typical Franciscan style. Simplicity with reverence is their tradition. However, I have mostly worked along with Franciscans all my life and they administer parishes that were built by other orders or by secular priests. The churches are very European, because they’re older, some going back more than a century and the friars have been very faithful to the original architecture and have removed nothing, except to add the altar in the center of the sancturay and as I said, it has been deliberately designed to blend in with the architecture around it.
My current parish has lines for confession as long as 400 people on holy days and less on regular Saturdays. We have a Life Teen mass that is beautiful with contemporary music and sometimes some parts of the mass in Latin plain chant, which is different from classic Gregorian chant, but it exposes the kids to the Latin and the chant. It attracts about 1000 kids every Sunday night.
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I don’t like the music that they use, so I rarely attend that mass. My 18-year old son likes that better than the 11:00 mass with is more quiet with traditional hymns, the organ and so forth.
In the jungles of Ecuador, we had mass in Quichua with beautiful Quichua hymns. The usually took some part of scripture and put it to music, nothing wrong there. These masses were full.
In Guayaquil, more men joined religious orders than the diocesan seminary. Therefore, religious ran most of the parishes. The same in San Juan, Puerto Rico and in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. In Latin America the religious orders are getting many vocations, where as the secular priesthood is getting much less. Therefore the bishops have to ask the religious if they will do the diocese the favor of covering some parishes, which religious do not have to do. Nonetheless, they do so with great joy and charity.
I see great charity on the part of religiious orders, which we the laity should be thankful that they are willing to take on a duty that is not their responsibility. Religioius do not join religious orders to run parishes. Most religious orders have a mission of their own given to them by their founders.
Again, I’m not saying that everything is perfect. What I’m saying is that in may 35 years of being a Catholic and working for the Catholic Church the number of faithful priests, parishes and religious out numbers the nut jobs.
These posts make it sound like the nut jobs are running the Church and the liturgy. That’s a misrepresentation. Maybe it’s a local problem or over reaction. Only the posters know for sure.
My overall experience has been very postive, very holy and I am very grateful to the religious communities who have stepped up to the plate to take over parishes where there are not enough secular priests to do so. We should thank them. This is not their responsibility. Parish work is the responsibility of secular priests, not religious. Only clerical religious institutes were founded to run parishes and their aren’t too many of those.
I wonder if we should rethink about this and see it in light of the bigger picture of what is happening around the country and around the world.
JR
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
If it were guaranteed that abuses would stop, I’d be all for such an abrogation. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem likely, and perhaps it’s just as well the TLM remains “extraordinary”, so that it does not become subject to abuses.
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Spiller
Guest
Indeed!
The great majority of those who seek out the EF are those who are cognizant of and detest liturgical deformations. Wanna see a “clown Tridentine?” Ram the Tridentine Mass down the throats of all Catholics.
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Brian777
Guest
What we need to do is stop the abuses! keep the two balancing each other out. No! we need like Liturgical police or something idk, sounds stupid but seriously, we need something like that now!
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Spiller
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Nope. Your preferences are your own but what you believe in this case is erroneous…It’s just my opinion and a personal preference for what I like and believe. We’ll just have to agree to disagree
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The EF is not a magic bullet. Ramming it down Catholics’ throats will not mean an end to abuses.
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HashemEchad
Guest
Back in the 1970s (or was it the 1960s? I forget), there was a rock band called the Electric Prunes who actually set the TLM to rock music. They called it “Mass in F Minor”. You might still find it in LP format on Ebay.
Anyway, I actually kinda liked it…it wasn’t as bad as it sounds, but as interesting as that was, as a novelty, I’d hate to open the door for anything like that for fear it would degenerate into what happens at many NO’s.
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Spiller
Guest
Good Lord, NO!!!
A thousand times NO!!!
You want to really cripple the Church and cause GREAT division? Go ahead and implement your “police.”
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Brian777
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It would never happen! Just the way its said would never allow for that possibilty it would cause people to walk out! This doesnt happen in the Novus Ordo because in certain cases people dont understand the seriousness of the Mass. i wouldve like to have heard Father Corapi but i have to go Stan’s cess pit 5 days a week aka public high school. But tell me, they (the abuses) couldn’t have really been that bad, could they?
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Brian777
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So liturgical abuse is a good thing then? how do you propose to stop it if it is an evil? and if it isnt, why do so many people care?
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Spiller
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Wrong.
Besides, what forces a celebrant to follow the rubrics? People on this forum love to give examples of the celebrants do not follow the OF rubrics. Priests celebrating the EF are not magically kept from not following the rubrics.
Educate yourself on this matter. Begin by listening to the commentary by Fr. Corapi that was mentioned earlier.
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Aragorn1
Guest
It sounds interesting, where can I find it?
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Spiller
Guest
Please don’t try to put words in my mouth!
I never said nor did I ever infer that liturgical abuses are a good thing. I take umbrage at you suggesting I did.
What I do know is “liturgical police” is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE idea. Nothing like big brother watching! Talk about something that would divide the church and cause all sorts of turmoil?
And just what good would it do? Send the priest a few reports showing how he committed/facilitated liturgical abuses? After a few such reports call him in for a sit-down, and if he didn’t improve his ways, fire him?
Or maybe direct intervention? Right in the middle of the Mass a whistle could be blown at any abuse, the Mass would stop and the police would confer with the celebrant?
The relationship between bishop and priest is father/son. What we need is FAR better formation for our bishops and priests and FAR better communication amongst everyone and more than anything, FAR more prayer!
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Spiller
Guest
I am searching. I just heard the deacon mention it…
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Brian777
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ok i guess what i meant was like every so often an anonomous diocesan employee would like m ake his rounds and take down notes on the liturgical abuses he saw. then report to the bishop who could then decide for hin=mself how best to handle it. I was in way saying that more prayer and better communication wore useless they would be an integral part of the idea from the get-go!
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Joannm
Guest
Pope Benedict did not begin the re-translation of the Missal. The Roman Missal, the Latin version, was redone in 2000. The translation into English has been in the works since then. The translation into English not only involved our country but evey country in the world that has English as its liturgical language. Every episcopal conference has to approve the translations and then it has to be approved by Rome. That is why it is taking over 7 years to translate. So Benedict really had nothing to do with it.
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JReducation
Guest
We humans have a tendency to do two things, not out of malice, but out of nature.
- We tend to remember only the good of the dearly departed and forget the weaknesses, even the mass before Vatican II.
- We can forgive almost anyone except God, our parents and the Church when we feel that we have been wronged.
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catherine_m
Guest
It’s only your opinion that my beliefs are “erroneous”. To me they are not!
For the record, I don’t believe the TLM is a “magic bullet” as you say. And I certainly never suggested “ramming” it down anyones throat.
I truely believe that the TLM is far more respectful and free of liturgical abuse than the NO. And I have never heard heresy preached by a Priest at a TLM which unfortunately I cannot say about the NO. That is the experience I have had as a Roman Catholic.
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JReducation
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by light. My Jewish son became a Catholic because of Life Teen. A friend of his invited him. He kept going and eventually entered the RCIT. In our parish it’s run by the Teen Life ministry.
At that time he was in 11th grade and didn’t really enjoy any form of school, he never missed a class and did everything they taught him.
I’ll share some examples of the results.
- He was asked to choose a confirmation name, research the name and explain what that name meant to him. He chose Michael in honor of the Archangel. He said that he had chosen it because Michael is a warrior and he believes that there are too many things wrong in the world that need to be fixed. He was able to take the theology of the Archangel and apply it to daily life.
- Someone asked him to explain why God had cooperated with evolution, instead of creating the world in six days as the Bible says. He answered, “The Bible is not a science book. It talks about who God is. As to why? God doesn’t have to justify himself. He’s God, take it or leave it.”
JR
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