Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

[JReducation]

I hope we will abandon TLM too and return to something more traditional.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who want to be popes and claim infallibility. You just can’t have that many infallible people running around. It doesn’t work.

The best solution is to

1. Call it was the Church has called it “The Extraordinary Form” of the Latin rite and the “Ordinary Form” of the Latin rite, drop the TLM label.
2. Accept that there are two forms and that we have a choice and thank God and the Church for the richness of the Church that has so many possibiities to help us reach sanctity.
3. Reorganize our priorities. Teresa of Avila said it best, “without humily there is no salvation”. Salvation does not come from one form or the other, it comes through humility. How we approach Christ in the liturgy and what we take from the liturgy into the community is how we achieve sanctity.
4. Remember that God does not hire a hit squad to convert others to our believes. We cannot convert anyone, only God can convert. We have to do our job, live our faith is our job. Be faithful to what the Church teaches is our job. Share what we know when the other person is ready to ask, that’s our job. Take the example of St. Dominic and the Order of Preachers. They preach, but they do not push conversion. That they leave to God.
5. Take the example of Cardinal O’Conner, Cardinal O’Malley and Jean Vanier. They share their faith with the world and then wait for the Spirit to work. They don’t push.
6. Interiorize the Catechism of the Catholic Church and make it part of our daily lives.
7. Take the example of St. Francis and embrace the cross through a life of penance, prayer, obedience to authority, even if we’re not so sure where the bishops are going. If they’re not asking us to sin, then we should obey without murmurring, as St. Francis did in immitation of Christ.
8. Take the example of St. Therese the Doctor of the Church, do small things with great love, be quiet and pray.
9. Follow the example of Mother Teresa. Don’t look at every man’s faults, because we all have faults. Instead see Christ in every man and love him and serve him. This way you preach the gospel without words.
10. Apply the simple rules of St. Francis de Sales for the Devout Life.

This is a lot of work. As St. Francis said, “Let us begin, for up to now we have done nothing.”

JR

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Do we really know what we have and appreciate the gifts that have been given to us?

JR

Unfortunately, I believe many people do not. Some peoples world is too small to see the rest.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[antimon]

JReducation:

…

congratulations for wasting so much time responding to a humorous non-serious remark.

 

[catherine_m]

I was curious, is it is the hope of anyone here eventually have the Church totally revert back to pre-Vatican II liturgies, eventually eliminating the newer form of the Mass.

Yes, absolutely. This would be a dream come true for me!
I LOVE the TLM. It’s richness, devotion and adoration are beyond compare, particularly in regard to liturgy, language and music.
In my opinion it shows a far greater respect for the Eucharist than the NO and therefore a far greater respect and worship of God.

 

[JReducation]

congratulations for wasting so much time responding to a humorous non-serious remark.

Congratulations on your display of charity.

JR

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Yes, absolutely. This would be a dream come true for me!
I LOVE the TLM. It’s richness, devotion and adoration are beyond compare, particularly in regard to liturgy, language and music.
In my opinion it shows a far greater respect for the Eucharist than the NO and therefore a far greater respect and worship of God.

Why would you not want others who feel that way about the Novus Ordo to have that same dream come true for them. Again, and I have said this over and over again. The respect does not come from the Language, but from the peoples heart and soul. Why would you not want to allow them to have this?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Spiller]

Why would you not want others who feel that way about the Novus Ordo to have that same dream come true for them. Again, and I have said this over and over again. The respect does not come from the Language, but from the peoples heart and soul. Why would you not want to allow them to have this?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

One of the single finest questions I have ever seen asked on these forums. Let’s see if it can be answered without going off on a disjointed tangent about “clown Masses” and “Mahony.”

 

[catherine_m]

Why would you not want others who feel that way about the Novus Ordo to have that same dream come true for them. Again, and I have said this over and over again. The respect does not come from the Language, but from the peoples heart and soul. Why would you not want to allow them to have this?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Okay, I accept your point. Maybe it would be best if there was an equal opportunity to attend both. That is that there be as many TLM’s available as NO Masses which is not the case at the moment. That would make it fair, so people could attend which ever they liked best. However there should be a vast improvement made in respect shown at a NO Mass. In my experience it is difficult to come across a Mass today where there is appropriate respect shown by both Priest and people.
I have always found far more respect shown to God, (who we are supposed to be worshipping at Mass), at the TLM, and you are also unlikely to hear heresy preached or witness any liturgical abuses at the TLM!!!

 

[Miles_Mariae]

OP: Perhaps not in the near future, but it would be a good thing. Do away with a “banal, on the spot fabrication” and bring back the Mass of the Ages.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

there should be a vast improvement made in respect shown at a NO Mass. In my experience it is difficult to come across a Mass today where there is appropriate respect shown by both Priest and people.
!

My experience has shown me that the respect or lack of it seems to come from the fervor of the priest saying the mass, not the people attending. Perhaps with our seminaries now being straightened out, this problem may not be as common in the future. I assisted at one mass, as deacon, and the fervor of the newly ordained priest, sent chills down my spine. It was truly gripping. It was Novus Ordo. it can be in both. Lets look to the priests, pray for them, support them, help them in any way we can.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[catherine_m]

My experience has shown me that the respect or lack of it seems to come from the fervor of the priest saying the mass, not the people attending. Perhaps with our seminaries now being straightened out, this problem may not be as common in the future. I assisted at one mass, as deacon, and the fervor of the newly ordained priest, sent chills down my spine. It was truly gripping. It was Novus Ordo. it can be in both. Lets look to the priests, pray for them, support them, help them in any way we can.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

Indeed, lets hope it is sorted out. I certainly agree with you about the seminaries, and this gives great hope for the future.

 

[Spiller]

Okay, I accept your point. Maybe it would be best if there was an equal opportunity to attend both. That is that there be as many TLM’s available as NO Masses which is not the case at the moment. That would make it fair, so people could attend which ever they liked best. However there should be a vast improvement made in respect shown at a NO Mass. In my experience it is difficult to come across a Mass today where there is appropriate respect shown by both Priest and people.
I have always found far more respect shown to God, (who we are supposed to be worshipping at Mass), at the TLM, and you are also unlikely to hear heresy preached or witness any liturgical abuses at the TLM!!!

No.

Once again you are trying to suggest the EF is some sort of silver bullet that will eradicate all liturgical abuse and that simply is faulty thinking.

While liturgical abuse is likely lower in the EF versus the OF Masses celebrated today, there are clear reasons for that. The EF is celebrated by a tiny number compared to the OF and that tiny number is obsessed (rightly so) about abuses by and large. They (clergy and laity) bring a dislike of liturgical abuses with them to the EF – and may God bless them for doing so in most cases.

Abuse was not uncommon in the Tridentine Mass prior to the promulgation of the Pauline Mass when it was also celebrated in huge numbers. If the EF was forced back onto about a billion Catholics you don’t think these abuses would reappear in the same (or likely larger) numbers than in the past?

You think the inherent structure of the EF is such that it would PREVENT abuses? Think again – it didn’t in the past and it’s even less likely to now.

 

[Spiller]

OP: Perhaps not in the near future, but it would be a good thing. Do away with a “banal, on the spot fabrication” and bring back the Mass of the Ages.

You mean the Mass of the early church in the vernacular?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

No.

Once again you are trying to suggest the EF is some sort of silver bullet that will eradicate all liturgical abuse and that simply is faulty thinking.

While liturgical abuse is likely lower in the EF versus the OF Masses celebrated today, there are clear reasons for that. The EF is celebrated by a tiny number compared to the OF and that tiny number is obsessed (rightly so) about abuses by and large. They (clergy and laity) bring a dislike of liturgical abuses with them to the EF – and may God bless them for doing so in most cases.

Abuse was not uncommon in the Tridentine Mass prior to the promulgation of the Pauline Mass when it was also celebrated in huge numbers. If the EF was forced back onto about a billion Catholics you don’t think these abuses would reappear in the same (or likely larger) numbers than in the past?

You think the inherent structure of the EF is such that it would PREVENT abuses? Think again – it didn’t in the past and it’s even less likely to now.

Good point. You did say it a bit stronger than I would have, but then again, I have been rather strong in my replies at times
Prayers & Blessings
deacon Ed B

 

[Miles_Mariae]

You mean the Mass of the early church in the vernacular?

Since the thread title clearly states “Novus Ordo Missae” and “TLM”, maybe I mean one of the two

 

[Brian777]

The number of Catholics has increased.

yes, bu the number of Catholics leaving the faith on average has also increased.

 

[Brian777]

No.

Once again you are trying to suggest the EF is some sort of silver bullet that will eradicate all liturgical abuse and that simply is faulty thinking.

While liturgical abuse is likely lower in the EF versus the OF Masses celebrated today, there are clear reasons for that. The EF is celebrated by a tiny number compared to the OF and that tiny number is obsessed (rightly so) about abuses by and large. They (clergy and laity) bring a dislike of liturgical abuses with them to the EF – and may God bless them for doing so in most cases.

Abuse was not uncommon in the Tridentine Mass prior to the promulgation of the Pauline Mass when it was also celebrated in huge numbers. If the EF was forced back onto about a billion Catholics you don’t think these abuses would reappear in the same (or likely larger) numbers than in the past?

You think the inherent structure of the EF is such that it would PREVENT abuses? Think again – it didn’t in the past and it’s even less likely to now.

thats a stretch! the rubrics are too set in stone and ritualistic to abuse in any real noticable way. i mean its possible yes, but highly unlikely.

 

[catherine_m]

No.

Once again you are trying to suggest the EF is some sort of silver bullet that will eradicate all liturgical abuse and that simply is faulty thinking.

While liturgical abuse is likely lower in the EF versus the OF Masses celebrated today, there are clear reasons for that. The EF is celebrated by a tiny number compared to the OF and that tiny number is obsessed (rightly so) about abuses by and large. They (clergy and laity) bring a dislike of liturgical abuses with them to the EF – and may God bless them for doing so in most cases.

Abuse was not uncommon in the Tridentine Mass prior to the promulgation of the Pauline Mass when it was also celebrated in huge numbers. If the EF was forced back onto about a billion Catholics you don’t think these abuses would reappear in the same (or likely larger) numbers than in the past?

You think the inherent structure of the EF is such that it would PREVENT abuses? Think again – it didn’t in the past and it’s even less likely to now.

It’s just my opinion and a personal preference for what I like and believe . We’ll just have to agree to disagree .

 

[HashemEchad]

May I make a comment, as a non-Catholic who has always greatly admired and respected the TLM?

I for one would not like to see an exclusive return to the TLM for the Catholic church. I am familiar with the liturgical abuses that have taken place with the NO, and I’d be afraid the abuses would be applied to the TLM as well, something that would break my heart as a traditional religious person.

It for me would be akin to seeing modernist abuses applied to the traditional Orthodox synagogue liturgy.

Bring back the TLM for the people who TRULY respect and honor it, and let the NO also stay, so the weirdos have a place to go without going to the TLM!

 

[JReducation]

OP: Perhaps not in the near future, but it would be a good thing. Do away with a “banal, on the spot fabrication” and bring back the Mass of the Ages.

What are you calling the mass of the ages, the Extraordinary Form?

Because the Church has already made it clear. It’s Extraordinary.

Just like the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are never going to be Ordinary ministers unless they become deacons, the Extraordinary Form will never become the Ordinary Form unless the ordinary form is abrogated.

I can’t see that happening especially when they just approved the official Roman Missal of 1962. That’s what it’s called, available through any Catholic book store or EWTN online. It’s in Latin and the vernacular.

The Marians of the Immaculate Conception say it well in their spirituality, “virtue without prudence is not really virtue.”

It is not prudent to fight to Ordinary Form or to miimize it over the Extraordinary Form. They are equal forms of the same rite.

As to abuses, I said this before but no one responded. I have lived and worked in seven dioceses and have not seen as many abuses as people claim on these threads. I have seen two that I would say were unfortunate, but neither invalidated the mass or took away from the faith. I’ve been around since the 1970s.

JR

JR