Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

[Spiller]

Isn’t that part of the problem with the NO? I realize it may put people out of work, but why need a liturgist at all? Why not just say the NO as it was promulgated? Why keep people on their toes every Sunday? Why make it so different from parish to parish?

I’ve attended a lot of NO Masses in my life and have to say the only way to recognize it is from parish to parish is seeing the priest facing the congregation or sitting on the side, vernacular, favored people bringing up the “gifts,” communion in the hands, exchanging of handshakes, and extraordinary ministers. Everything else is up to the liturgist. Take this away all these externals and most wouldn’t recognize the difference between the OF and EF. Why is that?

It sounds to me like the “liturgist” in this case is more like a “Mass coordinator/set-up person.” Any Mass – OF or EF requires this.

The Pauline Mass offers very legitimate flexibility – which is one of the things I most love about it. However, even if one makes use of these allowed variables, they should in NO WAY keep you from recognizing the Mass from parish to parish. It’s not all up to the liturgist.

Your comments about “priest facing the congregation or sitting on the side, vernacular, favored people bringing up the “gifts,” communion in the hands, exchanging of handshakes, and extraordinary ministers” are disingenuous. You dislike the allowed practices and that’s on you.

 

[Brian777]

Because some of us can’t even spell simple words like “hit” and “come”.

Just kidding with you friend.

well if we were speaking spanish…

 

[Brian777]

**I don’t know about you, but I hope I keep hearing it for eternity. **

This I have not heard. If it is true, it may be from an erroneous instructor in one parish. Not the entire life team program
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

\

Oh i like knowing that God loves me, but we need to remember that God is a vengeful(sp?) God as well, and he will punish those who do not reciprocate His love. Not even that. What i really meant was that we need to start hearing actual Doctrine again. Thats all. I still cant get over how little i knew when i was confirmed in 2005. In the last year ive learned more than in 8 years of Catholic school.

 

[Brian777]

I do not think this is a position of the Catholic Church. The Church has only defined a handful of scriptures.

Really, this needs its own thread. Evolution, geocentrism, etc. has nothing to do with liturgy.

AMEN!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

\

Oh i like knowing that God loves me, but we need to remember that God is a vengeful(sp?) God as well, and he will punish those who do not reciprocate His love. Not even that. What i really meant was that we need to start hearing actual Doctrine again. Thats all. I still cant get over how little i knew when i was confirmed in 2005. In the last year ive learned more than in 8 years of Catholic school.

Mercy is for the living. Justice is for the dead.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ProVobis]

You dislike the allowed practices and that’s on you.

Exactly my point. You seem to be more concerned with the externals rather than the real Sacrifice of the Mass. Not that there is anything wrong with it, just an observation.

 

[goofyjim]

I would absolutely not like to see the Novus Ordo phased out. I wish the NO and TLM to peacefully coexist.

 

[pnewton]

In private appirations approved by the Church of Jesus to St Faustina , Jesus is quoted as saying, it is mercy I desire, not justice. The mercy is for those of us, the Church Militant, who are living. Justice is for the dead.

I was thinking of something along this line. While it is true that God is infinite in both attributes, we are not God. We are not called to be like God in all ways. Specifically, we are not to judge in the sense of ultimate justice. All judgment has specifically passed to the Son. That is scripture. Likewise, scripture does say that we are given the ministry of reconcilliation. That is the role of the Church. The Church Militant is only militant in the job we are given. Judgment is not that job. Reconcilliation is.

 

[ProVobis]

I was thinking of something along this line. While it is true that God is infinite in both attributes, we are not God. We are not called to be like God in all ways. Specifically, we are not to judge in the sense of ultimate justice. All judgment has specifically passed to the Son. That is scripture. Likewise, scripture does say that we are given the ministry of reconcilliation. That is the role of the Church. The Church Militant is only militant in the job we are given. Judgment is not that job. Reconcilliation is.

That’s pretty good. Makes sense to me.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I was thinking of something along this line. While it is true that God is infinite in both attributes, we are not God. We are not called to be like God in all ways. Specifically, we are not to judge in the sense of ultimate justice. All judgment has specifically passed to the Son. That is scripture. Likewise, scripture does say that we are given the ministry of reconcilliation. That is the role of the Church. The Church Militant is only militant in the job we are given. Judgment is not that job. Reconcilliation is.

Well said!!
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[antimon]

when I think about this topic, I want to worship God in language I understand. Maybe the best aproach to this is in the byzantine rite, they have beautiful ancient liturgy in vernacular.

 

[ProVobis]

when I think about this topic, I want to worship God in language I understand.

If only I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard this…

I see you’re on that bandwagon too.

Here’s a theological question: Do you really need a language to worship God or to hear Him?

BTW, I have nothing against the Byzantine Rite; I plan to attend sometime too.

 

[elt1956]

I was curious, is it is the hope of anyone here eventually have the Church totally revert back to pre-Vatican II liturgies, eventually eliminating the newer form of the Mass.

O’Boy! Please don’t start another thread on the NO or TLM Mass. The one on “Would everyone be happy to have the TLM Mass”? was a disaster. Very few could post objectively, many got into name calling, even calling the Popes since Vatican II heretics, or saying these same great men tainted the traditions of the Catholic Faith.

Very little was learned about either form which I had assumed would be the objective. People did learn to be hateful to one another. Brought out the worst in me. Peace

 

[Xpat]

Sounds like he knows what the Church teaches. The Bible is not a science book. It seems like I remember a guy named Galileo…

I bet you didn’t know that Galileo rejected his heliocentristic beliefs and once again embraced geocentrism just before his death.

 

[elt1956]

What about the fact that the Institute of Christ the King has had overwhelming success in saying the TLM in places such as central and North Africa?

I for one think that if everybody would simply study the basic differences between the TLM and NO theology, everyone would soon see that we are attending a Mass Luther would be proud of. Not a good thing if you ask me…

I suggest you go to the forum "Would everyone be happy to have TLM in their parish. I think enough has been said about both the NO and TLM on it to fill that forum and this one. Including Pope bashing.

 

[elt1956]

What about the fact that the Institute of Christ the King has had overwhelming success in saying the TLM in places such as central and North Africa?

I for one think that if everybody would simply study the basic differences between the TLM and NO theology, everyone would soon see that we are attending a Mass Luther would be proud of. Not a good thing if you ask me…

I bet you didn’t know that Galileo rejected his heliocentristic beliefs and once again embraced geocentrism just before his death.

read this…immaculata-one.com/section_15.html and you will understand. Almost all of the changes to the NO were changes that Luther and the Anglican heretics had changed in their masses in the 1500s. No wonder when you consider the fact that 6 Lutheran ministers and a Free mason “Cardinal” were incharge of writing the NO…

Please direct me to the " source" for this. Never mind. I just went to the website. It is a site for NO bashing and quite frankly I wouldn’t believe much of what it said. Show me the sources at an “objective” site and I will read them. Here goes my negativity. Seeing the Chruch bashed in ANY way tends to make me want to YELL!!!

 

[LSK]

No wonder when you consider the fact that 6 Lutheran ministers and a Free mason “Cardinal” were incharge of writing the NO…

names, please

 

[Claudius]

Great post, Claudius. Yes, I think there’s a major problem on both sides when it comes to distinguishing between “pro-EF” and “anti-OF”.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it Pope Damasus who changed the Mass to Latin?

My source says Pope Victor in 189. I will do some more research and put out some inquiries. I remember the story so well after I read it because it gave me a kind of hope. Latin wasn’t just for white people, Latin was for Catholic people. The same as any of the Liturgical languages could be said to be not just for the ethinic group that it originates from but for every Catholic that embraces it. The story of Pope Victor really got to me and stayed with me. Maybe I am wrong but even doing another search on Pope Victor now brings up the same information. Besides, he has a cool name doesn’t he. Pope Victor, defender of Easter and bringer of Latin. I could almost imagine a movie about him just based of the name. Victor the first of Africa, a hero for us all. Sure he was stern and a little bit of a trouble maker but he got the people Mass in the native language and helped to begin the long and beautiful tradition of Latin in the Church.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It’s only your opinion that my beliefs are “erroneous”. To me they are not!
For the record, I don’t believe the TLM is a “magic bullet” as you say. And I certainly never suggested “ramming” it down anyones throat.
I truely believe that the TLM is far more respectful and free of liturgical abuse than the NO. And I have never heard heresy preached by a Priest at a TLM which unfortunately I cannot say about the NO. That is the experience I have had as a Roman Catholic.

I agree with you.

I am however a realist. The TLM as we see it now is mostly without the abuses that could be found in the 1950’s and 1960’s. The reason is that those that follow the TLM are there because we want to be. No one is being forced to celebrate the TLM that does not respect it. This is my reason that the TLM should not be in each and every parish.

The thing that bothers me with the OF is that there are many people and even priests that that seem not respect the Mass IMHO.

For many of the Diocesan priests the priesthood is both a JOB and a vocation. They do not take a vow of poverty. They get scheduled days off (we no longer have Mass or adoration on Wed and the priest is not at RCIA because it is his day off), they can and do own property and all the other benefits of the secular society.

The religious orders take the vow of poverty. They are like the stay at home wife and mother. Unpaid with no true days off. But, IMHO the future benefits are greater then the drawbacks. They can watch the “family” grow and look to the Hope of Heaven.

 

[antimon]

If only I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard this…

I see you’re on that bandwagon too.

Here’s a theological question: Do you really need a language to worship God or to hear Him?

If we don’t need a language to worship or hear God, why use even Latin? Why not have silent masses?

If we don’t need a language, why read the Bible? Isn’t the Bible - the God’s Word - in our language, so we can understand it?

If we don’t need a language, why pray orally? And even when praying silently in your thoughts, don’t you formulate your prayers in language you understand?

Please, think again about your “theological question”.