Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

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btw, Revolutionary Changes are the product of MODERNISM.

**“What if some novel contagion seek to infect the whole Church, and not merely a small portion of it? Then he will take care to cling to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any novel deceit.” -St. Vincent of Lerins († 445) **
 
"The Old Mass

Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html
Thanks for the update. My quarrel is with neither the NO nor TLM. My quarrel is with those who abuse the right to post on CAF by attacking their “brethren”… I don’t know if anyone else has run into the verbal abuse towards each other some post on these threads, but I have seen it and it is disgusting. If dialogue cannot be conducted for the purpose of gaining knowledge and understnding about the Faith, I want no part of it. Abusing leaders of the Church will not be a part of my life. I will not listen, nor involve myself in petty arguments of who is right or who is wrong, that all Popes since Vatican II are heritics. This is true. I have seen this posted by so called Catholics. And most of these abuses have occured on posts regarding the NO and TLM. Now that is a darn shame, to argue about the Lord’s Supper. And we are supposed to be the guardians of the true Faith.

Neither the NO nor TLM should have contained abuses in the past, nor in the present nor future. I was just a kid growing up in the forties and fifties. What did I know other than what I was, or was not taught? For myself, my ignorance in my Religion in my childhood and teen years and possilbly until now, was caused by not receiving direction and the instruction I needed to understand what happens during the Mass. In not being taught to understand the Encyclicals, the Early Church, Doctrine, Dogma and many other, what to me now unfortunately, are elusive theories and beliefs. My religious instruction consisted of read, memorize and believe. No thinking. Apparently the Church was afraid during those times that one could be led astray through free thinking about one’s religion, through seeking and understanding the truth in order to fortify oneself in true belief. I think more have been led astray by not being taught how to study it than those who ponder, study the Catholic Religion and come to the answers themselves.
 
OH SAINTS PRESERVE US!! Dear Kathleen Elsie, would you tell me what the abuses were in TLM during th 50s and 60s? I grew up with this form of the Mass. I don’t know of ANY abuses, so if you could enlighten me, I would appreciate it. I just don’t understand, according to the Trads. the NO is rife with abuses now. Now I hear the TLM was rife with them back when I was a kid… I JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE GET THEIR INFO. !!!🙂 Peace.
Believe me, there were abuses. I remember different priests priding themselves as to how fast they could say the Latin mass. As if that was a badge of honor. Try 12 minutes for the record… I heard all of this all over again with Father Caropi on Catholic radio within the last week. It did bring back unpleasant memories. I guess with age, and time we tend to forget things and remember only the Good. This could be why most older people I know, me included, are mellow. (my wife may tend to dispute this part)
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Actually it is well-documented but who wants to listen to the GrandMason (or whatever you call him) of a Lodge? 🙂

But even if he were a FreeMason, what would or wouldn’t that do to the Novus Ordo? Don’t forget, there were six Protestants who helped Bugnini with the text of the Mass. It’s still valid, isn’t it? What you feel better if the Catholic bishops had written it? I don’t know about you, but I’d feel better if someone at the Vatican had translated what Paul VI actually promulgated instead of the ICEL. There’s your real problem.
Utter malarkey.

Show me any official Church document that identifies ABp. Bugnini as a member of the Freemasons.

One would have to be big-time gullible to believe that ABp. Bugnini was a Freemason – or they would have to be out to smear Bugnini.
 
…As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some…

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”
I remember “get them out fast”. I wish the NO had cured that. I don’t think for a minute that getting rid of the NO will do it.

There is no liturgy worth celebrating that someone cannot find a way to celebrate badly. A liturgy that could come close is a liturgy that could never be celebrated all that well, either, something like what passed as “dancing” in high school gyms in the '80s. Simple reason teaches that.

It might be supposed that some people go to Mass only in order to satisfy an obligation, but perhaps we just live in times in which it is difficult to extract ourselves from our distractions. Perhaps that problem, and not the exact liturgy we use, is where we ought to consider concentrating our efforts to improve the quality of our shared worship.
Utter malarkey.

Show me any official Church document that identifies ABp. Bugnini as a member of the Freemasons.

One would have to be big-time gullible to believe that ABp. Bugnini was a Freemason – or they would have to be out to smear Bugnini.
Frankly, I don’t care if Dr. Seuss wrote the NO. Who remembers who wrote the TLM? Anybody know whom Pope St. Gregory the Great had on his work committees? Anybody know what little monsignors, and of what personal history, were running around during the Council of Trent? That information is lost to the ages, and we’re not the worse for it.

It wasn’t Dr. Seuss that authorized any Mass to be promulgated. I know who did, and therefore I know what I can trust with regards to liturgical validity.
 
Show me any official Church document that identifies ABp. Bugnini as a member of the Freemasons.
Yeh, right. They’ll tell you.

But so what IF he were a Freemason, and I’m not saying I believe other Masons. There’s no real proof either way. It’s still a valid Mass, isn’t it? You needn’t get so uptight about it.
It wasn’t Dr. Seuss that authorized any Mass to be promulgated. I know who did, and therefore I know what I can trust with regards to liturgical validity.
That’s more like it.
 
Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

YES.
 
I don’t know but didn’t Christ author the Mass?
In one sense, yes, of course, this is true of every valid liturgy. But in another sense, neither the TLM nor the NO are purported to be direct approximations of, for instance, the breaking of bread after the Resurrection and prior to the Ascension, nor even of that which took place directly following Pentecost. There has been an evolution of liturgy since the first Masses, and this is not denied by anyone.
Thanks for the update. My quarrel is with neither the NO nor TLM. My quarrel is with those who abuse the right to post on CAF by attacking their “brethren”…most of these abuses have occured on posts regarding the NO and TLM. Now that is a darn shame, to argue about the Lord’s Supper. And we are supposed to be the guardians of the true Faith.
I have heard so many arguments on both sides. I think that what uncharity there is to be found in these posts is not meant as such. We are zealous to rejoice in the truth, and we forget ourselves, or we are anxious to be patient and kind, and forget our obligations to the truth. This is not to say that all have fallen into one of these errors or the other, but these are frailties which we all share at one time or another. Unfortunately, the two ways of failing love can exacerbate each other, if we are not very careful.

Your point reminds me of this passage: “What I now have to say is not said in praise, because your meetings are not profitable but harmful. First of all, I hear that when you gather for a meeting, there are divisions among you, and I am inclined to believe it.” 1 Cor. 11:17-18

He goes on to say, “He who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks a judgement on himself…therefore, my brothers, when you assemble for the meal, wait for one another.” (1 Cor. 11:29, 33) and then later goes on to say, “The body is one and has many members, but all the members, many though they are, are one body; and so it is with Christ…You then, are the body of Christ. Every one of you is a member of it.” (1 Cor. 11:12,27)

I think it is clear from this, then, that your point is valid: willful indulgence in strife over the Mass is itself a liturgical abuse, a sin against the body of Christ. This is not to say that there cannot be discussions or opinions, but that if we do not maintain an attitude of charity within that, we defile the Eucharist itself. You cannot abuse your brother in Christ and yet not abuse Christ. Once you give yourself that permission, IMHO, mind you, you are, in the effect of your actions, apostate, even if you are anything but apostate in the strict meaning of what you say. “If anyone says, ‘My love is fixed on God,’ yet hates his brother, he is a liar. One who has no love for his brother he has seen cannot love the God he has not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: whoever loves God must also love his brother.” (1 John 4:20-21)

Of course Paul is famously clear about what he would expect of the allowable sort of discussion: that those in it be patient, kind, not jealous, does not put on airs, not snobbish, never rude, not self-seeking, not prone to anger, not brooding over injuries, not rejoicing over what is wrong but rejoicing in the truth, without limit in forbearance, trust, hope, and power to endure.

Now that describes one extremely civil conversation, wouldn’t we all agree? And if we do not love as Paul describes love, in what sense can we claim that we love our brother? If we are rude, impatient, snobbish, or rude, even about the truth, can we go before God and protest how loving we are, how we have observed the commandments? If we do not clearly speak the truth, either, how can we say we love? Surely when we catch ourselves doing these things, we would repent and ask for forgiveness, rather than attempt to defend ourselves.

All but a very few of us have done it, though, and so I think we all would try to be compassionate on that account…those who have not done it being those most likely to be compassionate, in the first place!
 
Yeh, right. They’ll tell you.

But so what IF he were a Freemason, and I’m not saying I believe other Masons. There’s no real proof either way. It’s still a valid Mass, isn’t it? You needn’t get so uptight about it.

That’s more like it.
Quaesitum est

Quaesitum est is a declaration by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith forbidding Catholics from joining Masonic organizations. If they do so, they are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion. It was issued in 1983 by the prefect of the congregation, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI on April 19, 2005.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaesitum_est
 
Quaesitum est

Quaesitum est is a declaration by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith forbidding Catholics from joining Masonic organizations. If they do so, they are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion. It was issued in 1983 by the prefect of the congregation, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI on April 19, 2005.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaesitum_est
Thank you. However, attending Mass performed by or receiving from a Freemason priest is still valid, isn’t it? (I’m just supposing, not accusing.)
 
In one sense, yes, of course, this is true of every valid liturgy. But in another sense, neither the TLM nor the NO are purported to be direct approximations of, for instance, the breaking of bread after the Resurrection and prior to the Ascension, nor even of that which took place directly following Pentecost. There has been an evolution of liturgy since the first Masses, and this is not denied by anyone.
Internally, of course, we shouldn’t see any differences. However, we are human and get distracted easily. Not to mention, a little teensy-bit selfish and insecure too. 🙂
 
Internally, of course, we shouldn’t see any differences. However, we are human and get distracted easily. Not to mention, a little teensy-bit selfish and insecure too. 🙂
I don’t mean to say, though, that it is inherently selfish or insecure to have a preference. There is a clear difference between the Masses, and I like to think that these serve the variety of interior dispositions. I think it is a very good thing that the Pope is encouraging an effort to make the TLM more widely available to those who find it more fully disposes them for worship. If that is their disposition and the means exist, then by all means get those brothers and sisters a regular TLM!

Sometimes, I suspect there is a lack of charity or a desire, conscious or not, to be superior lying behind our resistance to believe that someone else is more fully disposed by the other Mass, but that is only a suspicion. I can’t think it applies in all cases, at any rate. Sometimes, well, you just think, “I don’t mean to be rude, but how you could find that more beautiful that this? REALLY? I just don’t see it.” We’ve all felt that about something, and felt it very strongly and honestly, even if not the Mass. Sin, such as self-centeredness, could give rise to that, but that feeling is not sinful, per se.
 
I don’t mean to say, though, that it is inherently selfish or insecure to have a preference. There is a clear difference between the Masses, and I like to think that these serve the variety of interior dispositions. I think it is a very good thing that the Pope is encouraging an effort to make the TLM more widely available to those who find it more fully disposes them for worship. If that is their disposition and the means exist, then by all means get those brothers and sisters a regular TLM!

Sometimes, I suspect there is a lack of charity or a desire, conscious or not, to be superior lying behind our resistance to believe that someone else is more fully disposed by the other Mass, but that is only a suspicion. I can’t think it applies in all cases, at any rate. Sometimes, well, you just think, “I don’t mean to be rude, but how you could find that more beautiful that this? REALLY? I just don’t see it.” We’ve all felt that about something, and felt it very strongly and honestly, even if not the Mass. Sin, such as self-centeredness, could give rise to that, but that feeling is not sinful, per se.
Personally, I feel inferior at a Novus Ordo Mass because either (1) I wasn’t chosen to bring up the Gifts; (2) I wasn’t chosen to read; or (3) I’m sitting next to someone who can sing louder than I can. I consider that, in a way, to be selfish and distracting from the real purpose of Mass. Yes, I guess you could say that I’m not properly disposed at the Novus Ordo. Would you agree?

That said, I have been asked to take up collections after the sermon. Hmmm. Wonder what my real calling is? 😃
 
That is nothing but garbage.

I feel sorry for any Catholic who actually believes that Archbishop Anibale Bugnini (or any Catholic ordinary for that matter) was or is a Freemason. To believe an unfounded rumor like that boggles my mind. Then again I suppose they WANT to believe that sorta garbage as it feeds their hatred of the normative OF of the Mass.

I also feel badly about the damage to the Church they do by saying he was one. What a horrible lie – all to fuel such septic agendas.
Alright fine you win. You must know everything about this! But just because there is no proof doesn’t mean its not true! Where there is an accusation, there is always evidence. Note: evidence does not equal proof)
 
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