Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

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Let’s separate some things here

The following were not abuses. They were approved by the Conference of Bishoops, which even under the Motu Proprio they have the final word in each country.
  1. Communion in the hand - approved even at the Vatican
  2. Female altar servers - left up to each bishop to decided
  3. Altar rails - not required as long as the sanctuary is visibly distinct from the rest of the church (they don’t have them in St. Pete’s Basilica (they have a barrier which they remove when they need to do so.)
  4. Tabernacle to the side of the sanctuary - approved by the Holy See as long as it is conspicuous
  1. Communion in the hand was granted as an indult by Memoriale Domini in 1969. It was granted only to those countries where the abuse originated, which was Belgium and Holland. This practice was not in The United States so the indult did not apply. This was ignored and introduced anyway. Bishops can ban it in their diocese. The bishop of Lima, Peru has banned it.
  2. Female alter servers was fought and forbidden by the Vatican for years. Pope John Paul II caved in 1994 to the shock of conservatives in the vatican.
  3. Huge Mistake
  4. Huge Mistake
    Not having altar rails and the tabernacle on the altar has contributed to the constant stats that say 75%-80% of Catholics do not believe in the real presence in the Eucharist.
    **
    National Conferences of Bishops were a huge mistake. They have become mini-Vaticans. They have no authority. Under Church law, the local ordinay has power and jurisdiction in liturgy. The Church needs to strengthen the local bishop and remove the bureaucracy.**
 
  1. Communion in the hand was granted as an indult by Memoriale Domini in 1969. It was granted only to those countries where the abuse originated, which was Belgium and Holland. This practice was not in The United States so the indult did not apply. This was ignored and introduced anyway. Bishops can ban it in their diocese. The bishop of Lima, Peru has banned it.
  2. Female alter servers was fought and forbidden by the Vatican for years. Pope John Paul II caved in 1994 to the shock of conservatives in the vatican.
  3. Huge Mistake
  4. Huge Mistake
    Not having altar rails and the tabernacle on the altar has contributed to the constant stats that say 75%-80% of Catholics do not believe in the real presence in the Eucharist.
    **
    National Conferences of Bishops were a huge mistake. They have become mini-Vaticans. They have no authority. Under Church law, the local ordinay has power and jurisdiction in liturgy. The Church needs to strengthen the local bishop and remove the bureaucracy.**
If I were you, I would leave for NY right now, before the Pope leaves town and tell him what he has to fix in the Church.

Maybe you can get the bishops to sit in on this meeting so that you can set them straight too.

JR 🙂
 
I will write a letter and send it to the Vatican. The Pope will probably never see it. Some low level modernist priest will read throw it in the trash and send me a prayer card while thanking me for the letter.

The faithful have been writing to the Vatican for years. They don’t care.
Michael Davies who should be a saint, was the great traditionalist and liturgical writer following Vatican II. I suggest people buy his booklets. Pope Benedict knows what Michael Davies has written.
Cardinal Semper , the prefect of the CDF before Ratzinger, told Davies in a meeting that they read his books and that they longer control the U.S. bishops and Church.
 
Not having altar rails and the tabernacle on the altar has contributed to the constant stats that say 75%-80% of Catholics do not believe in the real presence in the Eucharist.
Even if your stats are true, your inference that it was caused by removal of the tabernacle and altar rails is a ludicrous (and almost comical) post hoc ergo propter hoc. Tell me, did they have communion rails and the tabernacle on the altar in the early Church? Then why did they have such a strong faith? Lack of faith in the Real Presence is likely caused by other factors, such as the general secularization and immorality of our era.

And as for your stats, you might want to give this a look. And the CARA study published recently says that 57% of American Catholics do believe in the Real Presence. It’s far from what it should be, but it’s also a far cry from 20-25%.

Also in the CARA study is an interesting section that breaks down people’s beliefs about the Eucharist based on their attendance at Mass. 91% of those who attend weekly believe in the Real Presence; 65% of those who attend less than weekly but more than monthly believe; only 40% of those who attend a few times a year or less believe. The correlation between Mass attendance and belief in the Real Presence is clear. Lack of faith is caused by people not attending Mass and not frequenting the Sacraments, not by removing altar rails.
 
Saint Rafael, without answering any other question, or going off on any other tangent, please tell us what you do find right about the Roman Catholic Church. I would be curious in knowing this.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Saint Rafael

Is there anything about the Holy Father’s visit that has deepened your faith in Christ, either anything that he has said or done or on the part of the faithful?

JR 🙂
 
Saint Rafael, without answering any other question, or going off on any other tangent, please tell us what you do find right about the Roman Catholic Church. I would be curious in knowing this.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
There is almost nothing right with the Church right now. I believe we are in a total general apostasy from the Catholic faith. It is the worst in history, worse than the Arian Apostasy and Protestant Rebellion. We are living in the times of the third secret.

I am glad we have a dozen or so real heroes in the hierarchy.
The Motu Proprio will go down a significant turn in history. The
Pope in his heart knew it was the right thing and will lead to the death of the Novus Ordo.
**
What really makes me hopeful is all the young Catholics who are joining the traditional movement. They will be the future of the Church in which the great restoration will happen. Under 30 Catholics will clean up the mess of the last fifty years when they reach the age when they will be appointed bishops. The SSPX, FSSP, and ICK are the future for the priesthood.**

I am hopeful the next Pope will be the Pope of tradition. Our lady of Fatima promised the triumph of her Immaculate Heart.
 
There is almost nothing right with the Church right now. I believe we are in a total general apostasy from the Catholic faith. It is the worst in history, worse than the Arian Apostasy and Protestant Rebellion. We are living in the times of the third secret.

I am glad we have a dozen or so real heroes in the hierarchy.
The Motu Proprio will go down a significant turn in history. The
Pope in his heart knew it was the right thing and will lead to the death of the Novus Ordo.
**
What really makes me hopeful is all the young Catholics who are joining the traditional movement. They will be the future of the Church in which the great restoration will happen. Under 30 Catholics will clean up the mess of the last fifty years when they reach the age when they will be appointed bishops. The SSPX, FSSP, and ICK are the future for the priesthood.**

I am hopeful the next Pope will be the Pope of tradition. Our lady of Fatima promised the triumph of her Immaculate Heart.
If this is your true assessment of the Church, you who are one individual, not a part of the Magisterium, I promise, I will keep you in my prayers, big time…For the future of the priesthood, I will look to the guidance of Rome and only Rome.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Saint Rafael

Is there anything about the Holy Father’s visit that has deepened your faith in Christ, either anything that he has said or done or on the part of the faithful?

JR 🙂
The fact that he made the trip has been great. It has forced the media and Catholics to take religion seriously. I am glad he has talked so much about the sex abuse scandal, but he should go further. I though his vespers service was great. Just seeing the Pope makes me thank the Church for the Papacy and refutes the “other group”. People who have are starved for the supernatural gets to see the remnants of the once glorius Papacy when the men who took the name Pius were in charge.

I have been more disappointed with what I have seen.

The Mass in Washington was a disaster and debacle.

His sermons and lecures have been classic Ratzinger. As a theologian and professor, they are overly intellectual. The Pope needs to keep it simple. They don’t have enough edge. The Pope is too humble and as Pope he needs to rebuke and be more forceful. His rebukes have been to mild and naunce.

Going to the Jewish synogouge was an abomination. Before JPII, Popes never entered the house of worship of false religions. The worst part is that he did not preach Christ to the Jews. He did not ask tem to convert to Catholicism.

Another error was praying with heretics and scismatics. I thought Pope Benedict would put an end to this ecumenical nonsense.
His sppech was ok but the Catholic truths were too vague. Again there was no call to conversion

I also was sad to see the Pope give Communion in the hand. I wish that he would understand that reverence and sacredness of Communion on the toungue had been tradition for 800 years and the ultimate development of doctrine.
 
If this is your true assessment of the Church, you who are one individual, not a part of the Magisterium, I promise, I will keep you in my prayers, big time…For the future of the priesthood, I will look to the guidance of Rome and only Rome.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
I am not the only one. Many traditionalists have stated that we are in a crisis and state of emergency. Many bishops and Cardinals have made similar remarks. Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope Paul II have alluded to crisis in their statements over the years.

I follow the magisterium and the the novelties of the modern clerics over the deacades. It is the clergy who have not followed the magisterium.

The FSSP and ICK are valid religious order of priests with approval from Rome. They are exploding with men, unlike the other orders and diocese priests who are shrinking.
**
I will pray for you and all the other Novus Ordo Catholics who have not opened their eyes to the reality of decadence everywhere in the Church, world, and family. By the grace of God and due to my young age, I will outlive you. Those who are older and will face the Lord need the most prayers.**
 
What is that saying about the splinter and the beam in the eye. Do you remember how that goes.
Prayers & blessings
deacon Ed B
 
Objectivity is the issue at hand. I do not doubt the credibility of the Catholic Church. I do doubt the credibility of many of Her detractors. You are right that much of the so-called evidence produced by enemies of Bugnini would not be viewed with the same credibility of Vatican documents, or even disinterested news sources.
I’m with you on this. I suppose the same argument can be made against the detractors of the pre-John XXIII period, specifically, against Pius XII and his role in World War II. Some of that is very harsh indeed.
 
His sermons and lecures have been classic Ratzinger. As a theologian and professor, they are overly intellectual. The Pope needs to keep it simple. They don’t have enough edge. The Pope is too humble and as Pope he needs to rebuke and be more forceful. His rebukes have been to mild and naunce.

e.
Do we have a prodigy on our hands. A mere youth who knows how to address the people of the church better than the successor to the throne of Peter. forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/ani/hmmm.gif
:hmmm:
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I will write a letter and send it to the Vatican. The Pope will probably never see it. Some low level modernist priest will read throw it in the trash and send me a prayer card while thanking me for the letter.
Your cynicism is astounding here. How typical, to complain about some imaginary modernist priest in the Vatican who will censor everyone’s writings to the Pope!
The faithful have been writing to the Vatican for years. They don’t care.
If your hypothetical modernist priest is conspiring to censor all the writings of the traditionalists so the Pope and hierarchy won’t know what’s really wrong with the Church, how can you accuse them of not caring when they don’t know?

Or, maybe they do care, but they have better ideas about the good of the Church than your traditionalist letter-writing campaign. Ever thought of that?
Michael Davies who should be a saint, was the great traditionalist and liturgical writer following Vatican II. I suggest people buy his booklets. Pope Benedict knows what Michael Davies has written.
Cardinal Semper , the prefect of the CDF before Ratzinger, told Davies in a meeting that they read his books and that they longer control the U.S. bishops and Church.
Source?

If Davies said that, I’d be very skeptical of him. Frankly I prefer to have faith in the Church and not listen to conspiracy theories. And there’s no evidence that Rome has lost all control over the Church in America.
National Conferences of Bishops were a huge mistake. They have become mini-Vaticans. They have no authority. Under Church law, the local ordinay has power and jurisdiction in liturgy. The Church needs to strengthen the local bishop and remove the bureaucracy.
This is sheer hypocrisy. It is the traditionalists like the SSPX, not the USCCB, who have in effect become “mini-Vaticans”. Yes, the local ordinary has power and jurisdiction in liturgy, within the rubrics of the Missal of course. Problem is, traditionalists of the SSPX sort (you said you supported the SSPX in another thread) do not, in practice if not in theory, acknowledge that power and jurisdiction. That’s why they have their own bishops (consecrated against the express wishes of Pope JP2). For you to accuse the American bishops of what your own traditionalist friends are guilty of is hypocrisy of the most blatant kind.
His sermons and lecures have been classic Ratzinger. As a theologian and professor, they are overly intellectual. The Pope needs to keep it simple. They don’t have enough edge. The Pope is too humble and as Pope he needs to rebuke and be more forceful. His rebukes have been to mild and naunce.
How can you expect him to be less than he is? Do you want him to “dumb down” for people? If he did you would complain about that too. And was St. Thomas Aquinas overly intellectual? What about Pope St. Pius X?
I also was sad to see the Pope give Communion in the hand. I wish that he would understand that reverence and sacredness of Communion on the toungue had been tradition for 800 years and the ultimate development of doctrine.
What makes you think he does not understand the reverence and sacredness of COTT? Just because CITH is allowed doesn’t mean COTT shouldn’t be (and vice-versa). You’re engaging in either-or type thinking here.

Did you know CITH was widely practiced in the Early Church?

And “development of doctrine”??? Since when is one’s method of receiving Communion a “doctrine”? You’re confusing Tradition with tradition here.
I am not the only one. Many traditionalists have stated that we are in a crisis and state of emergency. Many bishops and Cardinals have made similar remarks. Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope Paul II have alluded to crisis in their statements over the years.
Well of course we’re in a crisis. No one here is denying that; you’re beating down a straw man. Where the traditionalists and other Catholics differ is on the remedy for that crisis. We simply don’t agree that the problem is the OF or Vatican II.
The SSPX, FSSP, and ICK are the future for the priesthood.
You shouldn’t lump together the FSSP and ICK with the SSPX. The former two are in good standing with the Church; the latter are not. If the SSPX is the future for the priesthood, we’d better hope they reconcile with Rome.
The FSSP and ICK are valid religious order of priests with approval from Rome. They are exploding with men, unlike the other orders and diocese priests who are shrinking.
That’s good! We need more holy priests.
I will pray for you and all the other Novus Ordo Catholics who have not opened their eyes to the reality of decadence everywhere in the Church, world, and family. By the grace of God and due to my young age, I will outlive you. Those who are older and will face the Lord need the most prayers.
I’ll pray for you too, but I would like to point out that you are making an entirely unwarranted assumption when you say we have not opened our eyes “to the reality of decadence everywhere in the Church, world, and family.” I’ve already pointed out that we know there is a crisis in the Church today, so there’s no need to accuse us of being blind.
 
The fact that he made the trip has been great. It has forced the media and Catholics to take religion seriously.
I believe they always have. Why do you think that presidential candidates pander to the Christian right? Why do you think that Catholics are still martyred today? Did you forget the Byzantine Metropolitan who was just martyred in Iraq?
I am glad he has talked so much about the sex abuse scandal, but he should go further.
How much further can he go? Are you a parent? When your child does something wrong, do you correct him or do you hound him? A real father corrects, expresses disappointment, gives guidance, but never responds with vengance. The Pope has responded as a true father.
I though his vespers service was great. Just seeing the Pope makes me thank the Church for the Papacy and refutes the “other group”. People who have are starved for the supernatural gets to see the remnants of the once glorius Papacy when the men who took the name Pius were in charge.
Are you saying that those who loved John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II did not get a glimpse of Christ through them? How do you think that John XXIII became Blessed John XXIII and how is it that Benedict XVI has called John Paul II, John Paul The Great and why does he believe that John Paul is looking down at us from “Heaven’s balcony”?
I have been more disappointed with what I have seen.
The Mass in Washington was a disaster and debacle.
Your opinion
His sermons and lecures have been classic Ratzinger. As a theologian and professor, they are overly intellectual. The Pope needs to keep it simple.
He’s a theologian. Why would you expect him to be someone he’s not? That would be introducing a novelty into the pesonality of the man and his mysticism. His mystique comes from his knowledge of theology. This was not a title that was handed to him on a silver platter. He actually had to take the university to a public tribunal to earn his PhD, because he introduced a new interpretation on the meaning of Revelation in his doctoral thesis that the Church had never taught. He won. He deserves to speak as a theologian. This is how he has served the Church and how he will be remembered, a great scholar. It is up to the audience to study his theolgoy, not up to him to put it aside.
They don’t have enough edge. The Pope is too humble and as Pope he needs to rebuke and be more forceful. His rebukes have been to mild and naunce.
He did not come to rebuke. He came to announce that Christ is our hope. He made the announcement. Now it’s up to the Holy Spirit to do the work.
Going to the Jewish synogouge was an abomination. Before JPII, Popes never entered the house of worship of false religions. The worst part is that he did not preach Christ to the Jews. He did not ask tem to convert to Catholicism.
The Church does not teach that Judaism is a false religion. Were you paying attention to what he said. He said that sitting in the synagogue made him think that Jesus prayed and taught in such a house of prayer. He called it a house of prayer and he also pointed to Jesus as the bridge between the Jewish faith and the Christian faith.
Another error was praying with heretics and scismatics. I thought Pope Benedict would put an end to this ecumenical nonsense.
His sppech was ok but the Catholic truths were too vague. Again there was no call to conversion
He himself supported the writings of the Church that declare that non Catholic Christians are not heretics and are not to be offended. He set an example for all Catholics on how to interact with non Catholic Christians. You did not hear him say that the separation was due to mistaken hermaneutics and that we have to come together to discuss the hermaneutics of scripture. The rest is up to us and the Holy Spirit to understand proper hermaneutics and to dialogue.
I also was sad to see the Pope give Communion in the hand. I wish that he would understand that reverence and sacredness of Communion on the toungue had been tradition for 800 years and the ultimate development of doctrine.
So you assume that you understand this better than the Pope?

Maybe the Holy Spirit made a mistake.

I will pray for you and those like you who seem to suggest that you have some kind of infallible insight that the Popes and the Councils of bishops lack.

I believe that you would be better off spending more time with the great saints who loved the Church and the Popes, even those who made serious mistakes in the past.

JR 🙂
 
Saint Rafael, I think you read the wanderer too much
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
The
Pope in his heart knew it was the right thing and will lead to the death of the Novus Ordo.
So now we’re reading the Holy Father’s mind (and heart)??? But if he really wished the death of the Novus Ordo why did he declare that both Missals are not rites in themselves but different usages of the same rite. He clearly sees the Novus Ordo as a legitimate development of liturgy, and is obviously not going to get rid of it.
 
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