Would you like to see the TLM back?

[GWS]

I personally travel a considerable distance (nearly across to the other side of the city) every Sunday to attend the FSSP’s TLM here. For those who may not be aware, Calgary is the largest city in North America in terms of geography. There is no question in my mind that the TLM should be available in every Catholic parish church, including the one less than two blocks from my house.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I understand that Trent condemned those things. I think Trent equally condemned the notion that what the Church proposes/promulgates in terms of outward signs and disciplines for the celebration of the Mass can be, for the faithful, occasions or incentives to impiety.

I think you’re making huge leaps in asserting that people hate the TLM. Some people just prefer the Pauline Mass. I’m one. I assure you, I don’t hate the TLM. I’m sick of SOME TLMers running down the Pauline Mass…THAT’S ALL!!!

I do not believe he was saying that you hated the TLM, nor do most people who attend the Pauline Mass.

I do, however, believe there were people who hated it. That is why we now have parish churches which a TLM could not be said in…they are designed in ways which actually inhibit the saying of the Traditional Mass. The people who did this hate the TLM, and are killing it by their architecture.

 

[Ace86]

Okay, I would like to see TLM back, but I’d rather Novus Ordo in Latin. I’d like a mix of the vernacular and Latin. Plus Sacred Art, Sacred Architecture, and Sacred Music. Those would certainly help with catechesis. It seems most American Catholics have too much American culture. That’s really sad.I also think the Liturgy has lost the Sacrificial aspect of the Mass, and replaced it with a meaningless ‘community-type’ aspect of the Mass.

What can laymen and clergy do to help promote the TLM, and/or a more reverent Liturgy??

 

[kleary]

JKirkLVNV:

I think Trent equally condemned the notion that what the Church proposes/promulgates in terms of outward signs and disciplines for the celebration of the Mass can be, for the faithful, occasions or incentives to impiety.

We cannot apply what Trent said to the New Mass promulgated in 1969. The Council Fathers at Trent were not clairvoyants. They could only speak of the celebration of the Rites with which they were dealing at the time.

JKirkLVNV:

I think you’re making huge leaps in asserting that people hate the TLM.

It is obvious that some people hate the TLM, most especially those who want drastic changes made to the Catholic Church and to the Catholic Faith.

JKirkLVNV:

Some people just prefer the Pauline Mass. I’m one. I assure you, I don’t hate the TLM. I’m sick of SOME TLMers running down the Pauline Mass…THAT’S ALL!!!

I cannot speak for what other people prefer as far as liturgy is concerned. Some may prefer the New Mass, yet it is a FACT known by the Church that the Tridentine Mass expresses and shows the Catholic faith BETTER than the New Mass. It is also a FACT that the Church knows that the Tridentine Mass expresses a better sense of the sacred. Just read the current pope’s material when he was a cardinal.

Ken

 

[BillyT92679]

I would think the Novus Ordo in Latin with the Priest facing ad orientam would be every bit as spiritually edifying as the Tridentine.

 

[Kielbasi]

BillyT92679:

I would think the Novus Ordo in Latin with the Priest facing ad orientam would be every bit as spiritually edifying as the Tridentine.

It would look the same, at least to the untrained eye certainly.

But the Church isn’t really inclined at the present point in time to make any Latin mass the normative mass of the church, as it would change the whole paradigm which has been built up of vocal participation by the faithful.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

I understand that Trent condemned those things. I think Trent equally condemned the notion that what the Church proposes/promulgates in terms of outward signs and disciplines for the celebration of the Mass can be, for the faithful, occasions or incentives to impiety.

I think you’re making huge leaps in asserting that people hate the TLM. Some people just prefer the Pauline Mass. I’m one. I assure you, I don’t hate the TLM. I’m sick of SOME TLMers running down the Pauline Mass…THAT’S ALL!!!

Hi Kirk, I think we all know that you don’t hate the Traditional Mass, you don’t really like it but you don’t hate it.

There are however a **LOT **of people who do hate it. They hated it years ago, they wanted it dead and buried, when it was revived they cried foul, and they hate it even more now than before.

You know that as well as I do Kirk.

 

[kleary]

Kielbasi:

It would look the same, at least to the untrained eye certainly.

But the Church isn’t really inclined at the present point in time to make any Latin mass the normative mass of the church, as it would change the whole paradigm which has been built up of vocal participation by the faithful.

That is not true. Just come to my parish and hear all of us responding and singing! The thing about people not being able to participate in the Tridentine Mass is a farce invented by the liberals who want the Mass destroyed.

Ken

 

[kleary]

BillyT92679:

I would think the Novus Ordo in Latin with the Priest facing ad orientam would be every bit as spiritually edifying as the Tridentine.

“We would rather have the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular and facing the people rather than the Novus Ordo in Latin and facing the altar.”

Marcel Levebvre

Ken

 

[tradconvert]

I always felt spiritually barren and empty at the protestantised novus ordo masses - of ocurse there are many wonderful n.o. masses said by wonderful ly devout priests. But I did not convert to the Catholic faith to become quasi-protestant again and so I always attend the traditional latin mass now. Further whenever I am assisting at a traditional latin mass my mind and my senses are totally subsumed by the holiness and beauty of the mass and my faith is deepened even more. The graces one can gain are incalculable.

 

[Ignatius]

I votes yes presuming you mean readily available, not replacing the N.O. I would also like our parish to have a N.O. in Latin or with a lot more Latin in it as it is said in Rome. There’s nothing like the Pater Noster sung in Latin.

 

[Kielbasi]

kleary:

That is not true. Just come to my parish and hear all of us responding and singing! The thing about people not being able to participate in the Tridentine Mass is a farce invented by the liberals who want the Mass destroyed.

Ken

I really don’t know what happens at the modern Tridentine masses, as I’ve never been to one. If you tell me that the people vocally respond, I’d be inclined to believe you.

What I do know is what was happening during the Tridentine masses when it was the regular mainstream mass of the church, and what happened was the people were not expected to, nor did they, respond vocally to the prayers.

Why do you think that the people, all of the people (not just those who “prefer” Latin mass) would act any different than they did in the past in response to hearing the Tridentine mass?

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I really don’t know what happens at the modern Tridentine masses, as I’ve never been to one. If you tell me that the people vocally respond, I’d be inclined to believe you.

What I do know is what was happening during the Tridentine masses when it was the regular mainstream mass of the church, and what happened was the people were not expected to, nor did they, respond vocally to the prayers.

Why do you think that the people, all of the people (not just those who “prefer” Latin mass) would act any different than they did in the past in response to hearing the Tridentine mass?

That is not entirely true. At the Cathedral, for instance, we have High Mass (responses sung by the choir), and so the people are free to sing the responses as well. At Low Masses on First Fridays, with no choir, the people remain silent.

Additionally, you forget the Dialogue Mass popular in the 20’s and the 30’s.

 

[CoastieWife]

A local parish has an indult & a full-time priest from the Institute for Christ the King. This priest does a reverent TLM, and there are a few very reverent servers assisting. This is a Good Thing. However, the pseudo-choir is REALLY NOT good and quite fast-and-loose with the music, and therefore anything beyond a simple Low Mass is akin to fingernails on the chalkboard…so my own feeling is unless a parish can do a truly solemn TLM, it’s better avoided!

But my bigger concern with the TLM is the fragmentation it has brought to the parish…at this local TLM I’m totally distracted by the women treating their headcoverings as the latest fashion accessory, the families parading about “being seen” while allowing their well-dressed children to be completely obnoxious, the clanking of rosaries during the Liturgy, and worst of all the very self-congratulatory attitudes at the Sunday coffees following Mass, where I hear time & again about “those bad Novus Ordo folk”, how “I won’t attend ANY Mass but the TLM”, and railing against “those people” in general. It gives me hives…to the extent that I deliberately avoid the TLM because I don’t want to appear to condone any of the “us-vs-them” mentality in the clique!

So I love the TLM…but I also love the NO, because I love the Liturgy of our wonderful Church. I dislike the abuses on BOTH sides of the fence!

I’ll just add that Rome was VERY clear about the indult, that it is granted on several conditions not the least of which is that the priest celebrating the TLM MUST do his best to insure that the TLM attendees understand that the NO is valid and that they don’t bash the (valid, holy) NO or otherwise fragment the Church in favor of their “traditional” preference.

Sigh. I need more coffee.
Karen

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

!

I’ll just add that Rome was VERY clear about the indult, that it is granted on several conditions not the least of which is that the priest celebrating the TLM MUST do his best to insure that the TLM attendees understand that the NO is valid and that they don’t bash the (valid, holy) NO or otherwise fragment the Church in favor of their “traditional” preference.

Karen, So interesting. We don’t have anything like that among our TLM people. Perhaps it is more reflective of the part of the country you come from.

Now then: Please give me the source for the above quote. Ordinarily, I’d go look it up myself, but I am burdened with an unusual number of problem things right now, and so would appreciate your reference.

Would also appreciate all prayers for my 16 year-old grandson who will have surgery tomorrow…biopsy of interior of his jaw and bone marrow and bone removed from his hip to fill in the jaw.

God bless,

Anna

 

[palmas85]

CoastieWife:

A local parish has an indult & a full-time priest from the Institute for Christ the King. This priest does a reverent TLM, and there are a few very reverent servers assisting. This is a Good Thing. However, the pseudo-choir is REALLY NOT good and quite fast-and-loose with the music, and therefore anything beyond a simple Low Mass is akin to fingernails on the chalkboard…so my own feeling is unless a parish can do a truly solemn TLM, it’s better avoided!

But my bigger concern with the TLM is the fragmentation it has brought to the parish…at this local TLM I’m totally distracted by the women treating their headcoverings as the latest fashion accessory, the families parading about “being seen” while allowing their well-dressed children to be completely obnoxious, the clanking of rosaries during the Liturgy, and worst of all the very self-congratulatory attitudes at the Sunday coffees following Mass, where I hear time & again about “those bad Novus Ordo folk”, how “I won’t attend ANY Mass but the TLM”, and railing against “those people” in general. It gives me hives…to the extent that I deliberately avoid the TLM because I don’t want to appear to condone any of the “us-vs-them” mentality in the clique!

So I love the TLM…but I also love the NO, because I love the Liturgy of our wonderful Church. I dislike the abuses on BOTH sides of the fence!

I’ll just add that Rome was VERY clear about the indult, that it is granted on several conditions not the least of which is that the priest celebrating the TLM MUST do his best to insure that the TLM attendees understand that the NO is valid and that they don’t bash the (valid, holy) NO or otherwise fragment the Church in favor of their “traditional” preference.

Sigh. I need more coffee.
Karen

Haven’t heard the clanking of rosary beads before, usually it’s just clicking. Must have some king size rosaries in your parish. How do women treat the veils as fashion accesories? Constantly twirl them and play with them? Well dressed children being completely obnoxious as opposed I guess to normally dressed, baggy trousers tee-shirts baseball caps and tennis shoes, children being obnoxious. Most kids are pretty obnoxious, at least I was And just how do families parade about during the Traditional Mass? Not a whole lot of opportunity for that you know.

You say that you avoid the Traditional Mass in order to avoid the us vs them mentality. re-read what you wrote. It is nothing but us vs them mentality, from your own mouth. At least be honest about it.

And please, if you are going to put the Traditional Mass down, stop with the old noisy rosary beads routine. It’s been done to death, and nobody believes it anyway. :tsktsk:

.

 

[Marilena]

arieh0310:

So, are traditionalist all gathered in ghettos? I would say they are sprinkled throughout each diocese.

what do youmean ghettos? Poor areas? If so, the answer is no.
Iam a Tradtional Catholic, and I wouldn’t say we are in a “ghetto”
Please explain what you mean?

 

[theMutant]

anna1978:

If we’re just spectators we might as well watch a movie! I was always taught that we, the people, unite ourselves together with the prayers of the priest…Now, THAT I buy …Which is why I really don’t like the TLM. I realise a lot of people do get something spiritual out of it, but I’m afraid it turns me right off.

My mom came back to the church after 30 years, shortly before she died, and she said the same thing:: ‘I finally feel part of this!’.

Anna x

Actually, I found the opposite experience. Contrary to the previous poster, the faithful are never supposed to be merely spectator’s at Mass although we do not all have the same roles. I will be turning 41 this month and had the pleasure of of attending the Traditional Latin Mass at St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach, CA before Fr. Johnson retired. It was at this Mass that I finally felt that I was a part of it. In all of the other parishes (and I tried many) it seemed like the priests and “liturgy committees” were constantly trying to find new and exciting ways to entertain us - making us nothing more than spectators. I felt like I was in some kind of dinner theater where the audience “participates.” They don’t really but they are made to “feel” that way.

It was at the TLM that I could finally follow along with the prayers because I new what was coming next. In the current rite, there are so many options that you hardly ever know what’s coming next. (Will we say the Confiteor this week? Well, we’ll see what Father’s in the mood for.) I remember my very first experience of the TLM in my early 30’s. I came out wondering how the Church could so lightly cast aside something so beautiful.