Would you like to see the TLM back?

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Anna Elizabeth:
Thanks, Rob’s Wife. Now who is your generous bishop who grants all these indults? :confused:

God bless,

Anna
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My archdiocese is about as generous as Rob’s Wife’s. Out of about 150 parishes there is 1 TLM and 1 Latin NO (both in inconvenient locations, maybe that is where all traditionalists live). Assuming Dr Bombay’s scientifically verified 10% traditionalist figure is indeed correct, then we should have at least 15 parishes offering a more traditional mass (being that 15 is 10% of 150).

I guess the definition of generous is offering 10% of the 10% a traditional mass.
 
Anna Elizabeth:
Thanks, Rob’s Wife. Now who is your generous bishop who grants all these indults? :confused:

God bless,

Anna
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Bishop Edward Slatterly.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Kirk, I’m so disappointed that you would “AMEN” such a viscious ad hominem attack. (To make it ICEL friendly, that means an attack based on blind prejudice, not reason.)

Actually, I don’t feel my response to being called a liberal, TLM hating, ignorant Catholic viscious in the least. Nor is it blind prejudice, as I was responding to specific statements - not assumptions.
If anyone was being viscious or posting based on blind prejudice, I would suggest it was Ken.
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arieh0310:
My archdiocese is about as generous as Rob’s Wife’s. Out of about 150 parishes there is 1 TLM and 1 Latin NO (both in inconvenient locations, maybe that is where all traditionalists live). Assuming Dr Bombay’s scientifically verified 10% traditionalist figure is indeed correct, then we should have at least 15 parishes offering a more traditional mass (being that 15 is 10% of 150).

I guess the definition of generous is offering 10% of the 10% a traditional mass.
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There are not 150 parishes here. I think it’s closer to 30 and it’s a really spread out diocese.
And I would argue your math reasoning too.
Yeah, there could be 10% traditionalists in a given diocese, but that may work out to only single digit numbers of people in each parish - thus the lack of perceived need to offer a TLM in the area and the distantance between the ones offered.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Kirk, I’m so disappointed that you would “AMEN” such a viscious ad hominem attack. (To make it ICEL friendly, that means an attack based on blind prejudice, not reason.)

I had hoped someday we might be able to attend Holy Mass together and hold hands while saying the Pater Noster in Latin, as a symbolic, unifying gesture. Your racalcitrance makes me dubious that it will ever happen. 😦
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That wasn’t an ad hominum attack! I think Rob’s Wife laid it out fair and square, based on reason, to use your words.

Sorry to dissappoint, Doc, I don’t hold hands during the Pater, be it in Latin or English or Sanskrit. I will buy you a bear claw afterwards, though.
 
Servus Pio XII:
In quoting them, I was also answering a different charge.

I apologise for the misunderstanding of your point, indeed I am sorry. I undertand, and hope you do as well, the confusion.

In all actuality, that is not the age card I mind all that much. the one I mind is when I am commenting on the Latin Mass and people tell me, “Well, you weren’t there” and leave the argument at that, thinking that I am 14 means I cannot have a valid point in regards to this.

As for the way I come across, I am working on this…or trying to at least. I do have rather a harsh tone, it is partly my personality, but also that when I hold an opinion, I hold it strongly (if you haven’t guessed). Additionally, I am indeed frustrated that I am only 14, and therefore incapable of doing all that much.

I suffer no illusions as to the fact that I am indeed 14 or an adolescent. I expect no one else to do so. What I expect is for people to debate an issue with me using something besides “You’re 14, what do you know?”

For the record, I have gone to several Pauline Masses that I loved, especially the one offered at St. Patrick’s in the City in DC (said in English). The problem is that I usually go out of most Masses with either the rough draft of a letter to the bishop mentally written, or just livid at the lyrics to a certain hymn. I especially get mad at my school when, during the sacred silence, the accompainist plays soft semi-“inspirational” music, meaning I cannot pray in silence, as I enjoy doing.

God Bless,
SPXII
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I remember 14. 14 stinks, but 16-21 is a blast (and I wasn’t a wild child). Hang in there and don’t wish your life away. It’s old, it’s tired, and it’s trite, but it is remarkably true: “You’re only young once.” From my vantage point of near 44, I’d love to have my teenage years back…but only if I could know what I know now!!!

As for the problem of the current state of the liturgy in the West, I do truly sympathize. We’re blessed in our current pastor (more or less), but I’ve visited places where alarm bells go off in my head (California, for example) when I go to Mass. That’s what I refer to as the “liturgy police sitting in my head.” Sometimes, you have to listen to them and you have to act on it (I’ve done so…I had a run in with a deacon at the door of the church), but unless things are just eggregious, you have to kind of mute them. We’re there to attend upon and assist with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You have to concentrate on the Fact that Our Lord and Savior, the Creator, the Logos, God Almighty Himself is descending on the Altar, accompanied by the adoring host of heaven (“as the Light of Light descendeth, from the realms of endless day!”), ready to prostrate themselves, surrounded by the cherumbim and the seraphim, even though they may be having to stand next to a burlap banner held by a gum-chewing altar girl and listen to a priest who thinks he’s just “it” when it comes to liturgical interpretation. He’s there and all the Holy Ones are there, along with the broken sinners and so should you be and so should I be.
Besides, I do truly think that the Holy Father IS going to take steps to deal with these abuses, and I do think that more and more men are coming out of the seminaries who want to truly be alter Christii, not showmen. I just don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
Rob's Wife:
Yeah, there could be 10% traditionalists in a given diocese, but that may work out to only single digit numbers of people in each parish - thus the lack of perceived need to offer a TLM in the area and the distantance between the ones offered.
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So, are traditionalist all gathered in ghettos? I would say they are sprinkled throughout each diocese.
 
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arieh0310:
So, are traditionalist all gathered in ghettos? I would say they are sprinkled throughout each diocese.
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:ehh: Wha??? Your post makes no sense? I didn’t say anything about economic demographics at all and did say that they (traditionalists) appear to be spread through out each diocese.
 
Rob’s Wife said:
:ehh: Wha??? Your post makes no sense? I didn’t say anything about economic demographics at all and did say that they (traditionalists) appear to be spread through out each diocese.
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Well, ghettos aren’t primarily ecomonic. I objected to your statement that in each parish there were probably single digit percentages of traditionalists (and I use that word for lack of a better one, please don’t associate that word with the Lefebvrites). If there were single digit percentages of people who prefer a traditional mass at most parishes and yet double digit percentages of people who prefer a traditional mass in the diocese then that would necessitate a cultural “ghetto” of sorts.
 
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arieh0310:
Well, ghettos aren’t primarily ecomonic. I objected to your statement that in each parish there were probably single digit percentages of traditionalists (and I use that word for lack of a better one, please don’t associate that word with the Lefebvrites). If there were single digit percentages of people who prefer a traditional mass at most parishes and yet double digit percentages of people who prefer a traditional mass in the diocese then that would necessitate a cultural “ghetto” of sorts.
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:rolleyes: **Oh geez… **
First - I didn’t write “that in each parish there were probably single digit percentages of traditionalists”. What I did write was that there, “may work out to only single digit numbers of people in each parish” and that would explain why the dioceses don’t offer more TLM’s or only have a few available to a given area.
Second - If you want to get technical then your own given link to a definition of the word “ghetto” does NOT fit your own post.
From Webster dictionary on-line:
Inflected Form(s): plural
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ghettos also **ghettoes
**Etymology: Italian, from Venetian dialect *ghèto *island where Jews were forced to live, literally, foundry (located on the island
1 : a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
Nope, that doesn’t fit the description of a small number of people spread over an entire diocese.
2 : a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
Nope, that doesn’t fit either. They live all over the diocese and are free to move.
3 a : an isolated group <a geriatric ghetto> b : a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity
No again. I certainly don’t view them as inferior. (Although the same can’t always be said of their view of those who do not attend the TLM.) They are not limited in opportunity. They can drive or move to any parish, if they desire to do so.
 
Rob's Wife:
Second - If you want to get technical then your own given link to a definition of the word “ghetto” does NOT fit your own post.
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I am using hyperbole. The reason I offered the link was to demonstrate that I was using the cultural not the economic definition in my exaggeration.

The point I am trying to make is that, in at least my diocese, the Latin NO and TLM are placed in real economic ghettos and there are so few traditional masses offered (only 2) that it creates virtual cultural ghettos because many people drive long distances to attend a mass that offers a traditional feel.

I don’t mean to come across as confrontational, but this just how I perceive things in my neck of the woods, that there is little choice when it comes to a non-kumbya mass.
 
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arieh0310:
The point I am trying to make is that, in at least my diocese, the Latin NO and TLM are placed in real economic ghettos and there are so few traditional masses offered (only 2) that it creates virtual cultural ghettos because many people drive long distances to attend a mass that offers a traditional feel.

I don’t mean to come across as confrontational, but this just how I perceive things in my neck of the woods, that there is little choice when it comes to a non-kumbya mass.
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I guess I just don’t understand your reasoning.
First you state that minority traditionalists are spread through out the diocese.
Then you claim a cultural grouping of traditionalists in just 2 parishes, which are located in economic ghettos.
**That sounds like a common sense layout to the above demographic situation to me. **
**It would be fruitless to offer a TLM in every parish, when only a handfull of the parishoners there would even want it. **
It makes sense to put the TLM where it is most likely to be wanted and/or there is the greatest ability to have it. This could be due to the people living in a certain area wanting it or it could be due to finding a priest who is able and desiring to offer it in his parish.
Neither of these situations are the fault of the local bishop or even the local priest in most cases. It is just simple neccessity and common sense creating the situation.
 
Rob’s Wife said:
There are not 150 parishes here. I think it’s closer to 30 and it’s a really spread out diocese.

And I would argue your math reasoning too.

Yeah, there could be 10% traditionalists in a given diocese, but that may work out to only single digit numbers of people in each parish - thus the lack of perceived need to offer a TLM in the area and the distantance between the ones offered.
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Just for your information, the Diocese of Tulsa has approx. 75 parishes and the Diocese of OKC has approx. 119 parishes. That means the Archdiocese of Oklahoma has 194 parishes serving 69,903 square miles. Out of that total of 194 parishes, there are exactly two TLM parishes. One is in Tulsa and one is in Bethany. Those two parishes say a total of five masses each Sunday. There are approx. 160,000 Catholics in Oklahoma or 4% of the population.

I guess it is how you define it, but I don’t consider two parishes out of 194 to be a “generous” application of the indult.
 
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SnorterLuster:
Just for your information, the Diocese of Tulsa has approx. 75 parishes and the Diocese of OKC has approx. 119 parishes. That means the Archdiocese of Oklahoma has 194 parishes serving 69,903 square miles. Out of that total of 194 parishes, there are exactly two TLM parishes. One is in Tulsa and one is in Bethany. Those two parishes say a total of five masses each Sunday. There are approx. 160,000 Catholics in Oklahoma or 4% of the population.

I guess it is how you define it, but I don’t consider two parishes out of 194 to be an “generous” application of the indult.
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You have proven my point, this is exactly the case out here. There are 150 parishes and about 390,000 Catholics. There is exactly 1 TLM mass that is located in an industrial area and one Latin NO in one of the worst parts of town. I wouldn’t describe this a generous…
 
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SnorterLuster:
Just for your information, the Diocese of Tulsa has approx. 75 parishes and the Diocese of OKC has approx. 119 parishes. That means the Archdiocese of Oklahoma has 194 parishes serving 69,903 square miles. Out of that total of 194 parishes, there are exactly two TLM parishes. One is in Tulsa and one is in Bethany. Those two parishes say a total of five masses each Sunday. There are approx. 160,000 Catholics in Oklahoma or 4% of the population.

I guess it is how you define it, but I don’t consider two parishes out of 194 to be a “generous” application of the indult.
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Yes, that is very generous actually. Considering the small number of Catholics here, 2 parishes devoted to a mass for less than 10% (& that’s a very arbitrary figure) of those few Catholics is very generous indeed.
How many parishes there are really isn’t even an issue. How many parishoners WANT a TLM is though.
One could just as easily argue that the reason there are so few TLM parishes is because there are so few parishoners who want it.
 
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UKcatholicGuy:
Does such a thing exist?
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I have to say that such a thing as a NO that is celebrated as it is meant to be does exist. Come to my Parish and you will see it. Reverence, bells (at all Masses), incense at “High Mass” etc. It didn’t used to be this way but it is here, as well as great homilies on subjects from abortion and sexual sins to gossip and more “common” sins to just how we should behave everyday and be a Catholic not just on Sundays but 7 days a week!

Now there is hand holding during the Our Father but that was started before we got our current Pastor and he sees it as an issue that is not important. We can choose to hold hands or not (I choose not after much research and prayer). Our Priests don’t hold hands with the Altar Servers, who in turn don’t hold hands either during the Our Father. When the Sgn of Peace is to be given, we do it reverently and only to those around us with the few who are a bit too effusive - but this is not an issue of the Mass not being done properly but one of some not understanding or accepting how it is supposed to be done because they either moved from somewhere else or just didn’t like how it is supposed to be done! This is just part of human nature to take things into our own hands (no pun intended).

Brenda V.
 
Rob’s Wife said:
Yes, that is very generous actually. Considering the small number of Catholics here, 2 parishes devoted to a mass for less than 10% (& that’s a very arbitrary figure) of those few Catholics is very generous indeed.

How many parishes there are really isn’t even an issue. How many parishoners WANT a TLM is though.

One could just as easily argue that the reason there are so few TLM parishes is because there are so few parishoners who want it.
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Gee, for some reason I figured you would consider two parishes to be generous, but very generous? Since you don’t consider distance to be a hindrance, maybe we could consolidate all those 194 parishes down to maybe 20. As you say, we have very few Catholics in Oklahoma and it would make more sense if we had fewer parishes. I don’t suppose you would mind driving to Oklahoma City to go to mass would you? After all, OKC is dead center in the state so it would not be a burden.

One could just as easily argue that the reason there are so many parishes is because there are so many parishioners who are too lazy to drive 150 miles to go to mass.
 
Hi Brenda,

Thanks for your reply.

I must admit I was being somewhat sarcastic with my remark. I also attend a very orthodox and reverent NO parish where the Mass is celebrated as it is supposed to be. It’s just that we are the MAJOR exception to the rule, unfortunately.

Anyway, I;m happy to hear you have a good parish.

God bless.
 
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SnorterLuster:
Gee, for some reason I figured you would consider two parishes to be generous, but very generous? Since you don’t consider distance to be a hindrance, maybe we could consolidate all those 194 parishes down to maybe 20. As you say, we have very few Catholics in Oklahoma and it would make more sense if we had fewer parishes. I don’t suppose you would mind driving to Oklahoma City to go to mass would you? After all, OKC is dead center in the state so it would not be a burden.

One could just as easily argue that the reason there are so many parishes is because there are so many parishioners who are too lazy to drive 150 miles to go to mass.
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If OKC was the only Catholic church available - then not only would I go if at all physically able (which would be required of me anyhow as it’s a commandment!), I would be mighty glad to do so and I wouldn’t complain about whether it was TLM or not either. In fact if that was the only Catholic mass available to me, I would have to consider moving there.

The problem isn’t finding a Catholic parish to receive Mass.

The problem is a small group of people not only want things only their way - they want it convienently and on demand.
 
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