Would you like to see the TLM back?

[anna1978]

palmas85:

I prefer the Traditional Mass mainly for its’ reverence and its’ focus on God, not me and the person next to me. I always come away from the Pauline Mass feeling a little let down, especially when the Priest comes up with something new and improved to hold my attention. I’m glad that you are spiritually nourished, but let me make a suggestion.

Next time you go to a Traditional Mass, try saying the prayers in the Missal. Don’t focus on the Priest, focuson Christ. You might see a big difference .

Take care

Thank you for explaining, I suppose I see enough reverence and focus on God in my parish during the NO not to ‘want’ the TLM very much…it really might depend on where we live, I don’t know. I personally see the priest as the representation of Christ during the Eucharist, and for me focussing on the priest is very important: through him I focus on Christ. So, if there are -what to me personally are-distractions, I can’t do that and come away feeling ‘empty’. I never feel ‘empty’ at an NO Mass, but again-this may simply be personal preference .

Anna x

 

[anna1978]

InnocentIII:

Hmm … I hope they keep the “iconoclast” in a cage. The last time he got out he caused a heck of a mess. Of course the “iconstasis” locked him away which is why the “iconoclast” is closed but the “iconostasis” is open.

On the other hand we could just stop making silly jokes and show respect for our Orthodox bretheren and get our terms right.

I knew it started with ‘icon’…my SIL and all her family are Greek-Orthodox and they’ve told me enough times, but I’m just not very good at remembering the correct terms…‘iconostasis’, yes that sounds familiar thanks

Anna x

 

[AJV]

palmas85:

A section of the Traditional Mass in comparison to the Novus Ordo Mass

The priest unveils the chalice and takes the paten with a host upon it, holds it at the level of his heart and says the following prayer:

“Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and everlasting God, this spotless host which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for mine own countless sins, offenses and negligence, and for all here present, as also for all faithful Christians, living and dead, that it may avail for my own and their salvation unto life everlasting.”

**Along with the actions of the priest, this prayer makes it clear that what is offered at the Mass is the “spotless host” or victim. ****Second, the propitiatory nature of the Mass is clear; it is offered for our sins. Third, it reminds us that the Mass is offered for the living and the dead; and fourth, that it is the priest who offers the Sacrifice as a mediator between man and God. **Such exactness is apparently incompatible with ecumenism, which seeks to downplay differences and blur the lines so to speak… As I have said, ecumenism was a paramount goal at Vatican II and the reforms that came about as a result… Protestants who reject the idea of a sacrifice and of purgatory would hardly be happy with such a prayer, so guess what???

In the Novus Ordo Mass , this prayer has been entirely deleted. And one of the reasons Paul VI offers for doing so is to make “the doctrinal content of the Mass more clear!” What?? I’m stumped on that one. In fact, of the twelve Offertory prayers in the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the new mass. Why were they eliminated? Could it possibly be because, as Luther, the great seeker of truth said, they “smacked of Sacrifice??..

The General Instruction for theNovus Ordo Mass tells us what happens.The preparation of the gifts, as it is called, makes clear that the purpose of these two retained prayers is to allow for the faithful to bring the bread, wine and collection to the table In the Novus Ordo, there is not even a hint that it is the Divine Victim which is offered. Rather, it is “the bread and wine,” the “work of human hands.” To speak of this bread becoming the staff of life**** or the wine becoming our spiritual drink implies absolutely no transformation, much less transubstantiation.

All very ecumenical, non-threatening and hopefully acceptable to the separated brethren.

Comments?

The debate about the nature of the offertory prayers has been an ongoing one since Patristic times. It revolves around to what extent the Holy Sacrifice should be anticipated in the offerotry. Several Eastern Offertory parayers were sometimes criticized by some Latins for the perceived blurring of the distinction between the actual Sacrifice and the offerring of the elements. I suppose that the modern liturgical movement would have thought in the same way, and that I suppose is what H.H. Paul VI, of blessed memory, meant by “making the doctrinal content of the Mass clearer” in that, the prayers of the Old Rite may be construed as if the Body of Christ is already present on the altar. Having said that I agree that the current Offertory parayers could be a tad clearer rather than using the phrases sch as the “bread of life” and “spiritual drink” which could be interpreted in another sense.

 

[kleary]

anna1978:

Tridentine Latin Mass, as it was before Vatican II. Our church still has one about 4 times a year and we have gone a few times, to see what it was like. I hated it, this priest mumbling on, barely audible, while everybody was praying the rosary, or staring at their missal…pfff…it gave me the creeps! No, I don’t ‘miss’ it and I certainly wouldn’t want it back. I converted at a time where the change had already taken place, and I must admit: I love being able to hear and understand what is being said! I do enjoy Gregorian chant though, and the odd hymn in Latin is nice too, but I’m afraid the TLM makes me feel like a spectator, on the side-lines, not taking part in what is going on at the front.

Anna x

Funny, I am 39, went to my first TLM Solemn High Mass in 2000. It was not as you say. The problem with your perception is due to your missunderstanding of why the priest prays silently and why you are not supposed to hear what he is saying.

Also the Novus Ordo Mass is not the same as the TLM made so you can understand it.

Ken

 

[anna1978]

kleary:

Funny, I am 39, went to my first TLM Solemn High Mass in 2000. It was not as you say. The problem with your perception is due to your missunderstanding of why the priest prays silently and why you are not supposed to hear what he is saying.

Also the Novus Ordo Mass is not the same as the TLM made so you can understand it.

Ken

My dh went to seminary WAY before he met me, and used to go to a lot of TLM’s as ‘Allan Hall’ had them in those days (they probably still do…) and he loved it! It was an ‘option’ for seminarians who wanted it. So, from him and his friends (most of whom have by now been ordained, one of whom guided us through our marriage preparation course in 2000) I do know the TLM, I also have read plenty on the ‘why’ and ‘how’ of all the changes in the 60s, and the NO…I just can’t say it enough: this is my personal feeling, that I get much more out of the NO, either celebrated in Latin or English. I really prefer being able to hear every word, and although I know exactly why the TLM was the way it was and how that evolved from the original ways the Mass was celebrated…I personally prefer the NO! I really do! And it has nothing to do with ignorance (my novice-mistress took good care to instruct us, and trust me we’ve had this discussion, she was in her 60s back in 1996/97, and my dh still re-reads his old seminary books with me at times, and they’re a wealth of information)…it is personal taste.

Having said that, here in Britain it really is a non-issue, as it is in my former home-countries of Holland and Germany. TLM’s don’t get a lot of ‘takers’ there, I know a few men active in the FSSP and they know and accept my views, as I have no problem accompanying them to our local FSSP TLM a few times a year with my dh, but I’m perfectly honest: I get spiritually fed at my Sunday Mass! And I know a lot of it boils down to ‘feelings’, I feel I’m getting more out of the NO, you feel you get more out of the TLM. Doesn’t mean you are right or I’m right…contrary to pre-VatII, at least now we have the option to choose! Which, for TLM devotees, is a good thing. I know a couple who specifically bought a house in Glastonbury because the Shrine of Our Lady of Glastonbury has a weekly TLM. Good for them, no problems with that. But I feel ‘at home’ in the NO

Anna x

 

[kleary]

Also, EVERYTHING in the TLM, every aspect, movement or part teaches the Catholic faith-

Example- there is a big difference between the priest and us- he is not as the Protestants say, just an ordinary man like you and me.

This is why the priest in the TLM prays the Confiteor first and then the lay people pray theirs after him. (Or the servers pray it for the people unless it is a dialogue Mass).

 

[bear06]

I’m just curious to find out if you guys answered the question in the title of the thread or the one in the first post because they are 2 different questions. One is "Do you want to see the TLM back? " and the other is “Do you want to see the TLM instead of the one we have now?” It would seem that a clearer poll would be warranted. I answered base on the first post but my answer would have been different if I had answered the question in the title.

 

[kleary]

anna1978:

I just can’t say it enough: this is my personal feeling, that I get much more out of the NO, either celebrated in Latin or English. I really prefer being able to hear every word
Anna x

The PROBLEM HERE is that in the Novus Ordo YOU DO NOT hear every word of the Tridentine Mass and most of the rubrics associated with the Tridentine Mass that taught, supported and defended the Catholic Faith were ELIMINATED in the Novus ordo.

You DO NOT hear the Ancient Roman Catholic liturgy in the Novus Ordo. In the Tridentine Mass you can actually actively and consciously participate! It is a KNOWN FACT at that.

Also, as I stated before there are REASONS in the TLM why YOU AS A LAY PERSON are NOT supposed to hear every word and reasons WHY you as a lay person are not to have the priest to look at you when speaking to you or addressing you.

Everything in the TLM teaches the Catholic Faith, every action, every rubric, every prayer- totally unambigiously.

Ken

 

[Marilena]

kleary:

The PROBLEM HERE is that in the Novus Ordo YOU DO NOT hear every word of the Tridentine Mass and most of the rubrics associated with the Tridentine Mass that taught, supported and defended the Catholic Faith were ELIMINATED in the Novus ordo.

You DO NOT hear the Ancient Roman Catholic liturgy in the Novus Ordo. In the Tridentine Mass you can actually actively and consciously participate! It is a KNOWN FACT at that.

Also, as I stated before there are REASONS in the TLM why YOU AS A LAY PERSON are NOT supposed to hear every word and reasons WHY you as a lay person are not to have the priest to look at you when speaking to you or addressing you.

Everything in the TLM teaches the Catholic Faith, every action, every rubric, every prayer- totally unambigiously.

Ken

 

[pnewton]

I answered “no” for the simple reason that I do not understand Latin to any workable degree. It is doubtful I would ever be able to think in latin and therefore would not be able to particiapate as fully in prayer and with as full of understanding.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

kleary:

The PROBLEM HERE is that in the Novus Ordo YOU DO NOT hear every word of the Tridentine Mass and most of the rubrics associated with the Tridentine Mass that taught, supported and defended the Catholic Faith were ELIMINATED in the Novus ordo. **Not remotely true. It is still THE Sacrifice confected for our salvation. **

You DO NOT hear the Ancient Roman Catholic liturgy in the Novus Ordo. In the Tridentine Mass you can actually actively and consciously participate! It is a KNOWN FACT at that. Absurd. You hear the Mass of the Church, promulgated by one pope and celebrated by him and three of his successors.

Also, as I stated before there are REASONS in the TLM why YOU AS A LAY PERSON are NOT supposed to hear every word and reasons WHY you as a lay person are not to have the priest to look at you when speaking to you or addressing you. **It is a specious argument to say that we aren’t supposed to be able to hear the canon. In the TLM, we don’t hear it, but that is a discipline, not a doctrine, and it could be easily changed by papal act to where we COULD be permitted to hear the canon in the TLM. **

Everything in the TLM teaches the Catholic Faith, every action, every rubric, every prayer- totally unambigiously. **As does the Mass of Paul VI. Repetition (saying the word “sacrifice” over and over, making MORE signs of the Cross) doesn’t make for a more effective Mass (or affective, for that matter). The intent of the priest, the form he uses (“this is My Body…this is My Blood”), and the matter presented are what confect the Sacrifice. **

Ken

 

[kleary]

pnewton:

I answered “no” for the simple reason that I do not understand Latin to any workable degree. It is doubtful I would ever be able to think in latin and therefore would not be able to particiapate as fully in prayer and with as full of understanding.

I never knew Latin either. Yet after one year of attending the Tridentine Mass I was able to be a Master of Ceremonies- right up there with the priest at the Altar turning the pages of the Missal and instructing him what to do.

It takes some getting used to I agree. At first I was like a fish out of water yet I proved to myself that the active participation called for by Vatican II was EXACTLY as they wanted it to be yet NOT AS IT CURRENTLY IS. “The people should be taught to say or sing IN LATIN the responses” said Vatican II.

The ordinary parts of the Mass, when you hear them over and over again, and look at what the words mean in English you can actively participate after a while.

Ken

 

[pnewton]

kleary:

The ordinary parts of the Mass, when you hear them over and over again, and look at what the words mean in English you can actively participate after a while.

Ken

I know, but it is not the same level of understanding. I can sing the Pater Noster, but I can not pray it with any degree of meaning. It is not the ability to pronounce the words or keep up with what is happening that would be a barrier, but the ability to be fully immersed in the liturgy.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

kleary:

I never knew Latin either. Yet after one year of attending the Tridentine Mass I was able to be a Master of Ceremonies- right up there with the priest at the Altar turning the pages of the Missal and instructing him what to do.

It takes some getting used to I agree. At first I was like a fish out of water yet I proved to myself that the active participation called for by Vatican II was EXACTLY as they wanted it to be yet NOT AS IT CURRENTLY IS. “The people should be taught to say or sing IN LATIN the responses” said Vatican II.

The ordinary parts of the Mass, when you hear them over and over again, and look at what the words mean in English you can actively participate after a while.

Ken

Nonetheless, the vernacular Mass is approved by the Holy See, whose actions are not subject to judgement by a council (pope trumps council, as it were), and it isn’t going anywhere (according to Cardinal Arinze, at least), ie, you’re not going to see a wholesale return to Latin, except in the sung responses you mention. You might win a greater support for the TLM for yourself and likeminded folks if you didn’t run down the Pauline Rite. I myself hope that the indult enjoys a greater generousity, but if it’s going to encourage more disparging ot the normative Mass of the Church, then I don’t see why we need it.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

As does the Mass of Paul VI. Repetition (saying the word “sacrifice” over and over, making MORE signs of the Cross) doesn’t make for a more effective Mass (or affective, for that matter). The intent of the priest, the form he uses (“this is My Body…this is My Blood”), and the matter presented are what confect the Sacrifice.

Fine, fine. Here is my proposed “Novus Novus Ordo” based upon this pronouncement:

The Novus Novus Ordo: The Ordinary of the Mass

The Introit

P: Good Morning.
S: Good Morning, Father.
P: Let us pray

The Offertory

P: Lord, you give us bread and wine,
make it your Son and let’s get it over
with.
S: Lord, make it your Son.

The Mass of the Faithless

P: It was supper and Jesus said,
“For this is my Body”
Likewise, after supper he said,
“This is the cup of my Blood”.

[Communion is distributed to the
faithful in any convenient and
expedient manner]

The Benediction

P: Bless you.
S: And you.

[The priest and people depart]

Not more effective if it were to be approved, right?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Servus Pio XII:

Fine, fine. Here is my proposed “Novus Novus Ordo” based upon this pronouncement:

The Novus Novus Ordo: The Ordinary of the Mass

The Introit

P: Good Morning.
S: Good Morning, Father.
P: Let us pray

The Offertory

P: Lord, you give us bread and wine,
make it your Son and let’s get it over
with.
S: Lord, make it your Son.

The Mass of the Faithless

P: It was supper and Jesus said,
“For this is my Body”
Likewise, after supper he said,
“This is the cup of my Blood”.

[Communion is distributed to the
faithful in any convenient and
expedient manner]

The Benediction

P: Bless you.
S: And you.

[The priest and people depart]

Not more effective if it were to be approved, right?

I’ve never suggested another rite be substituted for either rite. I’ve not, in this thread, denigrated the TLM or castigated those devoted to it. I’ve always hoped for a more generous application of the indult for those who desired the old Mass. All I have done is defend the Pauline Rite against what I believe to be a specious charge. The TLM is NOT inherently more reverent, in and of itself, nor is it any less subject to abuse than the Mass of Paul VI (I grant you, more abuse has been seen in the Mass of Paul VI), paraphrasing what Cardinal Arinze has said (if you think otherwise, then you need to read some objective history, but perhaps at the ripe old age of fifteen, you haven’t had the chance to do so yet). As long as the argument is “please, can’t we have the TLM?,” then I support it. If the argument is, “please, can’t we have the TLM rather than this ghastly Pauline Mass which comes near to being an impediment to the faith,” then I’m going to defend the Pauline Rite. I’m fortunate to worship in a parish where it is celebrated with reverence. I’ve been a Catholic longer than you’ve been alive and this is the Mass I love. You also might wish to cast your eyes over the following:

"Gregory XVI also affirmed that those that propose that the discipline of the Church is harmful fall under the condemnation of Pius VI…
“…[they] state categorically that there are many things in the discipline of the Church … [which] are harmful for the growth and prosperity of the Catholic religion… While these men were shamefully straying in their thoughts, they proposed to fall upon the errors condemned by the Church in proposition 78 of the constitution Auctorem fidei (published by Our predecessor, Pius VI on August 28, 1794). … do they not try to make the Church human by taking away from the infallible and divine authority, by which divine will it is governed? And does it not produce the same effect to think that the present discipline of the Church rests on failures, obscurities, and other inconveniences of this kind? And to feign that this discipline contains many things which are not useless but which are against the safety of the Catholic religion? Why is it that private individuals appropriate for themselves the right which is proper only for the pope (Encyclical Quo Graviora, October 4, 1833).The Council of Trent similarly declared:
“If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema.” (Session XXII, canon 7, Denz. 954.).

Pope Pius IX likewise taught:

“It would beyond any doubt be blameworthy and entirely contrary to the respect with which the laws of the Church should be received by a senseless aberration to find fault with the discipline which she has established, and which includes the administration of holy things, the regulation of morals, and the laws of the Church and her ministers; or to speak of this discipline as opposed to certain principles of the natural law, or to present it as defective, imperfect, and subject to civil authority.” (Mirari Vos, August 15, 1832.)

Vatican I likewise affirmed:
“We teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.” (Pastor Aeternus , ch. 3, par. 2"

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’ve never suggested another rite be substituted for either rite. I’ve not, in this thread, denigrated the TLM or castigated those devoted to it. I’ve always hoped for a more generous application of the indult for those who desired the old Mass. All I have done is defend the Pauline Rite against what I believe to be a specious charge. The TLM is NOT inherently more reverent, in and of itself, nor is it any less subject to abuse than the Mass of Paul VI (I grant you, more abuse has been seen in the Mass of Paul VI), paraphrasing what Cardinal Arinze has said (if you think otherwise, then you need to read some objective history, but perhaps at the ripe old age of fifteen, you haven’t had the chance to do so yet). As long as the argument is “please, can’t we have the TLM?,” then I support it. If the argument is, “please, can’t we have the TLM rather than this ghastly Pauline Mass which comes near to being an impediment to the faith,” then I’m going to defend the Pauline Rite. I’m fortunate to worship in a parish where it is celebrated with reverence. I’ve been a Catholic longer than you’ve been alive and this is the Mass I love. You also might wish to cast your eyes over the following:

No, my point was not anything to do with the Pauline Mass. My point was what you said regarding repetition…namely that repetition is bad, and that it is just the same, as long as there is consecration. This “proposal” has the words of consecration and, if it were adopted, could be considered valid. However, it is obviously inferior to the NO or TLM.

The same principle applies on a smaller scale.

As for your little litany as to why I should be considered a schismatic, you should know that I hold none of the heretical beliefs which you incorrectly inferred out of my statement.

And don’t play the blasted age card. I cannot help that I am fourteen (thanks for the extra year). I still can be educated on a subject if I set myself to it. Not all of us are morons who sit round like losers, listening to rap and talking for hours on the telephone.

I have attended both of the Masses, and I must say that I did indeed prefer the TLM. However, I did not say, nor did I imply, that I find Paul VI’s Mass some threat to the faith, or illegitimate, or anything of that nature. I do not know where you implied or devised this.

You may be interested in this post I made in the “**not ‘participating’ in Tridentine?” ** thread (In response to one who asserted that if you talked to people who lived before the vernacular they would like it more…I hold these views myself:

Nay, you may have run into people who are GOOD CATHOLICS, and obey the Pope whether they like it or not. I acknowledge the validity of the vernacular Mass, and it’s equal graces bestowed. I do not, however, have to like it.

Gratias agamus Domino Deo Nostro.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

thistle:

How many Catholics do you think speak and understand Latin? Out of 1.2 billion, very few I think.

I’d say at least 120 million.

Could very well be many more…

 

[Dr.Bombay]

palmas85:

Protestants always hated and still do hate the Mass mainly because of the sacrificial aspect of it.

Sadly, many Catholics hate the Mass too…

anna1978:

Tridentine Latin Mass, as it was before Vatican II. Our church still has one about 4 times a year and we have gone a few times, to see what it was like. I hated it, this priest mumbling on, barely audible, while everybody was praying the rosary, or staring at their missal…pfff…it gave me the creeps!

It almost makes me weep to see a Catholic say they hate the Mass. :nope:

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Servus Pio XII:

Fine, fine. Here is my proposed “Novus Novus Ordo” based upon this pronouncement:

The Novus Novus Ordo: The Ordinary of the Mass

The Introit

P: Good Morning.
S: Good Morning, Father.
P: Let us pray

The Offertory

P: Lord, you give us bread and wine,
make it your Son and let’s get it over
with.
S: Lord, make it your Son.

The Mass of the Faithless

P: It was supper and Jesus said,
“For this is my Body”
Likewise, after supper he said,
“This is the cup of my Blood”.

[Communion is distributed to the
faithful in any convenient and
expedient manner]

The Benediction

P: Bless you.
S: And you.

[The priest and people depart]

Not more effective if it were to be approved, right?

This is brilliant! Quick, to the point and we can all get home in time for kickoff!!! :bounce:

I hear the USCCB is looking for more liturgists. You might want to apply.