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GWS
Guest
The cry of anguish you just heard was that of the nail after being struck forcefully atop the head by the hammer.
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GWS
Guest
I can’t speak for anyone that knew the Traditinal Latin rite Mass when it was the normative rite. I was born in 1969 and never saw a TLM until last year.
However, in less than six months, I have gone from never having experienced the TLM to worshipping in that rite every Sunday, and sometimes once during the week as well. I made my decision based on the merits of the TLM (both the low Mass and the solemn high Mass) in comparison with the “new Mass”, and found the latter to be wanting. To date, I have not regretted my decision and I cannot see that changing after one year or one hundred years. For the record, I have no antiquarian streak within me, either.
Marilena, are you perhaps asking whether the TLM should once again be the normative rite of the Catholic Church?Iam just curious, would any of you love to see the TLM back, instead of the one we have now? I voted yes. I prefer the TLM.
K
Kielbasi
Guest
You have it backwards, I think.
The value of the Latin mass was that it was a unifying element in Catholicism. Everyone heard the same mass each Sunday , regardless of their own native tongue.
Every mass is in many ways the same in a theological sense, as it is the same sacrifice on calvary, that it represents.
The outward sign that everyone is saying and hearing the mass said in the same way brings home that theological idea to the people.
The idea of enabling more and more choices, saying it in different ways, and in different languages, just doesn’t teach the same doctrine.
M
Marilena
Guest
“Marilena, are you perhaps asking whether the TLM should once again be the normative rite of the Catholic Church?”
Yes, Iam saying that I’d like to see it back again. I prefer the TLM
to the Masses that we have now.
Yes, Iam saying that I’d like to see it back again. I prefer the TLM
to the Masses that we have now.
M
Marilena
Guest
I will never change my mind.
T
thistle
Guest
Anna Elizabeth:
Campion posted this:
I feel that a great attribute of the Latin mass is that people of different tongues can celebrate together and understand the Latin celebration.
He/she is implying that the Mass should only be in Latin and that everyone should speak enough Latin to understand the Latin celebration. To fully undersdtand and participate in a Mass you have to be able to understand what is being said.
I’m not changing the subject.
Campion posted this:
I feel that a great attribute of the Latin mass is that people of different tongues can celebrate together and understand the Latin celebration.
He/she is implying that the Mass should only be in Latin and that everyone should speak enough Latin to understand the Latin celebration. To fully undersdtand and participate in a Mass you have to be able to understand what is being said.
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palmas85
Guest
Even though it sounds good you totally lost me on that one. Any explanation??
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palmas85
Guest
Check out a copy of the Daily Roman Missal. That is the official missal for the Novus Ordo or Pauline Rite. The ENTIRE mass can be said in Latin. with the readings and the homily in the vernacular. It just isn’t done very often. There is absolutely nothing unique about the traditional Latin mass as far as Latin usage. Latin is STILL the official language of the Church.
I’ll pose a question to all the Traditional Mass haters out there. Hypothetical question, what would you do and how would you feel if the Pauline Rite was to be celebrated in that fashion, fully in Latin with the readings and the homily in the vernacular?? Not just a few phrases, but the way it is in the Daily Roman Missal?
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anna1978
Guest
I DO know what the missal is for: when I first got interested in Catholicism, an 1935 children’s missal was my ONLY way of knowing what went on in a Catholic church, I read it daily! But…I just don’t like seeing everybody staring at the prayers in their missals and saying their own prayers while there is a Mass going on! To me that is not full participation, I know our parish has missals for the NO and I don’t like using them, because it is distracting to me: as I read, I can’t pay attention to the priest at the same time.I did say, this is purely my PERSONAL view…
And…if you go to a TLM in Britain, you won’t find anybody under 60 attending (well…hardly) so I can assure you that everybody who IS there is a ‘devotee’ of the TLM, who often are FSSP members and travel around to hear the TLM, and revert straight back to pre-1970 behaviour. I once took my MIL, and she said ‘Wow, it’s like stepping back in time!’, and at 70 she actually prefers the NO as well. The strange thing is: I LOVE Latin and Gregorian chant (I lived 1 year in a monastery, as a postulant where most of our hymn-book and Lauden, Matutin etc. still involved Latin and Gregorian chant), so it has NOTHING to do with that!
I’m just a big fan of a properly conducted NO, either in English or in Latin, and finding that here in the West Country is not a problem, which is probably why not a lot of people long for a return to the TLM. Again, I’m only speculating here, I’ve never been to the USA…but maybe it is because of the WAY the NO is celebrated in American churches, that people overthere do wish to turn the clock back. I mean, holding hands during the Our Father…any Catholic here would go
, but I hear those things are ‘the norm’ in the USA…Here we kneel large parts of the Mass, we don’t stand very often (apart from for the Gospel-reading and the Credo really)…in the USA apparently, kneeling has largely been done away with. We still have the Sanctuary right behind the altar, so it is visable for everybody as they enter the church…again, I hear in the USA this is different, and the Bl.Sacrament is in a side chapel, here people tend to come into the church, kneel next to the pew, then spend silent time before the Mass starts…I often hear on these boards that in the USA, pre-Mass time involves a lot of talking and socialising, which we do afterwards: in the parish-hall…I could go on! My dh and his family know a priest in Philadelphia, whom they met years ago whilst on vacation there, and to be honest: the stories he tells them, do indicate that there are huge challenges out there…But, I think you read too much into my PERSONAL dislike for the TLM. I’m simply happy, comfortable and spiritually nourished by the NO as celebrated in this country, and see no need for something that- to ME- is stepping back in time. However, anybody who for whatever reason likes the TLM, good luck to them Anna x
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palmas85
Guest
The reasons you gave are the stock trade of the anti Traditional Mass crowd. They never miss a chance to bring up the Rosary sayers and such. I brought up the Missal angle because many people don’t know what they are and some say they have never seen them. As far as full participation how exactly would uou define that?I DO know what the missal is for: when I first got interested in Catholicism, an 1935 children’s missal was my ONLY way of knowing what went on in a Catholic church, I read it daily! But…I just don’t like seeing everybody staring at the prayers in their missals and saying their own prayers while there is a Mass going on! To me that is not full participation, I know our parish has missals for the NO and I don’t like using them, because it is distracting to me: as I read, I can’t pay attention to the priest at the same time.I did say, this is purely my PERSONAL view…
I’m just a big fan of a properly conducted NO, either in English or in Latin, and finding that here in the West Country is not a problem, which is probably why not a lot of people long for a return to the TLM. Again, I’m only speculating here, I’ve never been to the USA…but maybe it is because of the WAY the NO is celebrated in American churches, that people overthere do wish to turn the clock back. I mean, holding hands during the Our Father…any Catholic here would go
Anna x
I think the big difference in attitude in the two Masses is simply one of reverence. You stated that you cannot pay attention to the priest while looking at a missal. The priest is not the focus of the Mass nor should he be. The Mass is not about him… It is not like an evangelical service where the pastor is a showman and the center of attention… No the Priest offers the sacrifice to God the Father in the place of Christ for himself and us. The prayers are for all of us to say.
I too attend the Pauline Mass very often. I don’t have an intrinsic problem with it as a whole, just in the way it is normally celebrated. The Pauline Mass is a very simple service and was designed to be so. It was designed to downplay the sacrificial aspect of the Mass and to promote the communal supper angle, which I think it largely fails at doing. It was designed I feel in trhat way so as not to offend Protestant sensibilities in an effort at ecumenism. remember that the basic thrust of vatican II was ecumenism. Protestants always hated and still do hate the Mass mainly because of the sacrificial aspect of it. They say that the continued emphasis on the sacrifice indictates that Christs sacrifice was insufficient. The formation of the Pauline Mass, with its lack of emphasis on the sacrifice was I feel a bow in that direction.
It didn’t work, Protestants still hate the mass, the Priesthood, the Pope and just about everything else about the Chruch.
I prefer the Traditional Mass mainly for its’ reverence and its’ focus on God, not me and the person next to me. I always come away from the Pauline Mass feeling a little let down, especially when the Priest comes up with something new and improved to hold my attention. I’m glad that you are spiritually nourished, but let me make a suggestion.
Next time you go to a Traditional Mass, try saying the prayers in the Missal. Don’t focus on the Priest, focuson Christ. You might see a big difference
.Take care
M
Marilena
Guest
Frank and I know a protestant man who used to be a preacher, and he never has anything good to say about the modern Mass, or the TLM. I have known a few people who are not Catholic who do not have anything good to say about either the modern Mass, or the TLM. I feel that the TLM is wonderful! It is often hard for some people to talk to protestants about the Mass. They get in a tizzy about it at times. Some of them though are very easy to speak to. I have the pleasure of discussing my faith with a few of the older protestants. One of them especially likes my husband’s Passion Rosary. She looked at it very respectfully. ( wondered if she was going to give it back 
) If I see her next time, I will invite her to the TLM, and if she asks me for a Rosary, I will give it to her. Alot of the young folk don’t know about the TLM. My daughter went to one, and she prefers the modern Mass as she cannot understand Latin, and also because she likes to participate in singing the songs and so on. I believe the TLM
missals have both Latin and English in it so you can follow along.
I think there are also alot of young folk out there who have been
to the TLM, and really like it. I know we do!
) If I see her next time, I will invite her to the TLM, and if she asks me for a Rosary, I will give it to her. Alot of the young folk don’t know about the TLM. My daughter went to one, and she prefers the modern Mass as she cannot understand Latin, and also because she likes to participate in singing the songs and so on. I believe the TLMmissals have both Latin and English in it so you can follow along.
I think there are also alot of young folk out there who have been
to the TLM, and really like it. I know we do!
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Anna_Elizabeth
Guest
palmas, I think that this cannot be said too often. It explains so much that currently and for forty years has caused turmoil in the Church. The irony is that the very denominations so ardently solicited in this manner are rapidly self-destructing.
One thing we might do to help turn this misguided effort around is to insist that our priests choose ANY Eucharistic prayer but #2. This one is specifically geared to pander to Protestants, and is easily identified by its utter lack of any reference to any sacrifice Thankfully, Jean Paul in his last and perhaps greatest gift to the Church reemphasized exactly that.
God bless,
Anna
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GWS
Guest
palmas85, my sincere apologies for not making myself clear. My intention was to say that you hit the nail on the head. I missed the mark by letting a little needless verbosity get in the way of that. As the young 'uns these days are wont to say, “My bad!”
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GWS
Guest
Sounds good to me!
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palmas85
Guest
Anna Elizabeth:
The priest unveils the chalice and takes the paten with a host upon it, holds it at the level of his heart and says the following prayer:
“Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and everlasting God, this spotless host which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for mine own countless sins, offenses and negligence, and for all here present, as also for all faithful Christians, living and dead, that it may avail for my own and their salvation unto life everlasting.”
**Along with the actions of the priest, this prayer makes it clear that what is offered at the Mass is the “spotless host” or victim. ****Second, the propitiatory nature of the Mass is clear; it is offered for our sins. Third, it reminds us that the Mass is offered for the living and the dead; and fourth, that it is the priest who offers the Sacrifice as a mediator between man and God. **Such exactness is apparently incompatible with ecumenism, which seeks to downplay differences and blur the lines so to speak… As I have said, ecumenism was a paramount goal at Vatican II and the reforms that came about as a result… Protestants who reject the idea of a sacrifice and of purgatory would hardly be happy with such a prayer, so guess what???
In the Novus Ordo Mass , this prayer has been entirely deleted. And one of the reasons Paul VI offers for doing so is to make “the doctrinal content of the Mass more clear!” What?? I’m stumped on that one. In fact, of the twelve Offertory prayers in the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the new mass. Why were they eliminated? Could it possibly be because, as Luther, the great seeker of truth said, they “smacked of Sacrifice??..
The General Instruction for theNovus Ordo Mass tells us what happens.The preparation of the gifts, as it is called, makes clear that the purpose of these two retained prayers is to allow for the faithful to bring the bread, wine and collection to the table In the Novus Ordo, there is not even a hint that it is the Divine Victim which is offered. Rather, it is “the bread and wine,” the “work of human hands.” To speak of this bread becoming the staff of life** or the wine becoming our spiritual drink implies absolutely no transformation, much less transubstantiation.**
All very ecumenical, non-threatening and hopefully acceptable to the separated brethren.
Comments?
A section of the Traditional Mass in comparison to the Novus Ordo Mass
The priest unveils the chalice and takes the paten with a host upon it, holds it at the level of his heart and says the following prayer:
“Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and everlasting God, this spotless host which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for mine own countless sins, offenses and negligence, and for all here present, as also for all faithful Christians, living and dead, that it may avail for my own and their salvation unto life everlasting.”
**Along with the actions of the priest, this prayer makes it clear that what is offered at the Mass is the “spotless host” or victim. ****Second, the propitiatory nature of the Mass is clear; it is offered for our sins. Third, it reminds us that the Mass is offered for the living and the dead; and fourth, that it is the priest who offers the Sacrifice as a mediator between man and God. **Such exactness is apparently incompatible with ecumenism, which seeks to downplay differences and blur the lines so to speak… As I have said, ecumenism was a paramount goal at Vatican II and the reforms that came about as a result… Protestants who reject the idea of a sacrifice and of purgatory would hardly be happy with such a prayer, so guess what???
In the Novus Ordo Mass , this prayer has been entirely deleted. And one of the reasons Paul VI offers for doing so is to make “the doctrinal content of the Mass more clear!” What?? I’m stumped on that one. In fact, of the twelve Offertory prayers in the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the new mass. Why were they eliminated? Could it possibly be because, as Luther, the great seeker of truth said, they “smacked of Sacrifice??..
The General Instruction for theNovus Ordo Mass tells us what happens.The preparation of the gifts, as it is called, makes clear that the purpose of these two retained prayers is to allow for the faithful to bring the bread, wine and collection to the table In the Novus Ordo, there is not even a hint that it is the Divine Victim which is offered. Rather, it is “the bread and wine,” the “work of human hands.” To speak of this bread becoming the staff of life** or the wine becoming our spiritual drink implies absolutely no transformation, much less transubstantiation.**
All very ecumenical, non-threatening and hopefully acceptable to the separated brethren.
Comments?
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Adonis33
Guest
I absolutely wish the TLM would said mre often.
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Chickamauga
Guest
As a former Potestant, all I know is that the less Protestant the Catholic Church acts the better I like it and nothing could be less Protestant than the TLM.
Isn’t it amazing that a TLM Catholic, Mel Gibson, was able to attract so many non-Catholic Christians into the theaters with a very Catholic-looking and Catholic-sounding movie? Hmmm… this tells me Church would be better off and far more successful at ecumenism by being more traditionally Catholic rather than less. Very few ProtestantsEDIT are gonna be attracted to the Church because it tries to be more like they are in regard to worship services. If they already dislike the church because of the mass, TLM or not, they ain’t gonna look any differently at us just because we try change things around so we act more like they do.
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InnocentIII
Guest
I think this would probably solve most people’s issues. Have the readings and homily in the vernacular, get rid of the bland feel good petitions in the prayer of the faithful and have a genuine prayer the canon said in latin ad orientam, and allow people to receive the host without the bus queues (at our church we form a line along the sanctuary step so each person can choose for themselves whether to kneel or stand, receive in the hand or on the tongue). I can think of a few other minor changes I personally would like but I could live with this version of the Pauline mass.
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InnocentIII
Guest
Joe Gloor:
You are assuming the vernacular mass was a forward step in the first place. I agree that for some it is a harking back but quite frankly I am getting tired of my generation’s assumption that everything they changed in the 70’s and 80’s constitutes “progress”. I think it is time we admitted that mistakes were made and that going back to the way things were done is often a forward step out of the chaos we created.
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InnocentIII
Guest
Hmm … I hope they keep the “iconoclast” in a cage. The last time he got out he caused a heck of a mess. Of course the “iconstasis” locked him away which is why the “iconoclast” is closed but the “iconostasis” is open.
On the other hand we could just stop making silly jokes and show respect for our Orthodox bretheren and get our terms right.
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