Would you like to see the TLM back?

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slewi:
That’s because you are supposed to be a spectator. The priest is offering the lamb of our salvation to God, acting in place of Christ. We have nothing to do with it. We are meant to watch and then partake of the banquet.
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. We offer ourselves up with the Lord’s perfect sacrifice of Himself to the Father…that is our participation. (Same with the English mass too). Then of course to be fed and nourished with the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord.

The first few times I I attended TLM I was a bit lost, but in awe nonetheless. Now I follow along in the missal and pray silently in English what the priest is praying in Latin.

I humbly prefer TLM.

Peace!

DustinsDad
 
Servus Pio XII:
No, my point was not anything to do with the Pauline Mass. My point was what you said regarding repetition…namely that repetition is bad, and that it is just the same, as long as there is consecration. This “proposal” has the words of consecration and, if it were adopted, could be considered valid. However, it is obviously inferior to the NO or TLM.

The same principle applies on a smaller scale.

As for your little litany as to why I should be considered a schismatic, you should know that I hold none of the heretical beliefs which you incorrectly inferred out of my statement.

And don’t play the blasted age card. I cannot help that I am fourteen (thanks for the extra year). I still can be educated on a subject if I set myself to it. Not all of us are morons who sit round like losers, listening to rap and talking for hours on the telephone.

I have attended both of the Masses, and I must say that I did indeed prefer the TLM. However, I did not say, nor did I imply, that I find Paul VI’s Mass some threat to the faith, or illegitimate, or anything of that nature. I do not know where you implied or devised this.

You may be interested in this post I made in the “**not ‘participating’ in Tridentine?” **thread (In response to one who asserted that if you talked to people who lived before the vernacular they would like it more…I hold these views myself:

Gratias agamus Domino Deo Nostro.
Precisely where did I say repetition is bad? I didn’t, I said it did not make for a more effective (or affective) Mass. I was answering this charge, which I believe to be spurious: “The PROBLEM HERE is that in the Novus Ordo YOU DO NOT hear every word of the Tridentine Mass and most of the rubrics associated with the Tridentine Mass that taught, supported and defended the Catholic Faith were ELIMINATED in the Novus ordo.” and further: “Everything in the TLM teaches the Catholic Faith, every action, every rubric, every prayer- totally unambigiously.”(I’m not saying that it isn’t true, I’m saying that the Pauline Rite does as well).

I wasn’t implying that you were a schismatic. I wasn’t even implying that you were a heretic. I was merely pointing out something that is often overlooked when people are dumping on the Pauline Rite, the normative Mass of the Church.

As for your age, I will play that card. In many of your posts, you come across as smug and self-assured and contemptuous of your elders. That’s okay, I suppose, we all did it. But we got called on it, as well. You’ve said you’re considering Holy Orders. You might want to moderate both your attitude and your tone. We’ve already far too many priests who behave like spoiled little potentates. No one likes or listens to people who are “too big for their britches.” Arguments for the truth can be lost by their TONE, though they streak ahead in content. You are VERY obviously an intelligent young man. I have absolutely NO DOUBT whatsoever that you love our Blessed Lord. I have every confidence that if you follow truly after His good Will, you’d make a fine priest. The fact of the matter is that before you were born, I was already paying taxes. Someone did me the favor of reminding me of that when I was about your age, I’m doing you a favor by reminding you now. One of these days, sitting in a confessional and listening to some teenager go on and on, you’ll remember this. And you may even thank me.

I did see that thread you spoke of…where you use the word “nay” (who talks like that? A tad turgid, a little precious, along with “chap” and “huzza.” If you don’t want people to think you’re going through an adolescent phase, then don’t affect one). I’ve no objection to people desiring the TLM to be offered or the Pauline Rite in Latin per the Indult, esp. those who grew up with it (mainly those whom you quote). In the interests of strictly objective honesty, I can quote as many who don’t want to see a return to it and who prefer a reverently offered Pauline Mass in the vernacular. You don’t present a convincing argument in quoting them any more than I do in quoting the people who prefer the current rite.

When you make it to the UK, kindly remember me before the altar at the Shrine of the English Martyrs at the Brompton Oratory…you’ll love it! I was there in 1992, when I was 30…and you were 1.
 
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bear06:
I’m just curious to find out if you guys answered the question in the title of the thread or the one in the first post because they are 2 different questions. One is "Do you want to see the TLM back? " and the other is “Do you want to see the TLM instead of the one we have now?” It would seem that a clearer poll would be warranted. I answered base on the first post but my answer would have been different if I had answered the question in the title.
I understood the question to be whether or not the Latin mass ought to replace the current mainstream vernacular mass.

Any other interpretation wouldn’t make sense, as the TLM is available to everyone now, so it wouldn’t make sense to ask if folks want it “back” unless its understood that it would be back as the mass which is said everywhere as it was pre-1965.
 
I am only 21 but I have always wondered what the Latin Mass was like. Just from singing in a choir for a few years I learned most of the mass parts in Latin as there are some really nice versions of it. I probably actually prefer singing in Latin since it fits my voice more. I have heard some good things about the Latin mass so it probably would be interesting to try it out. Also the idea of a unifed mass around the world is a nice idea since it would be the same everywhere correct? However, if thy do revert back to it they shoud still offer the mass in English as well. I probably would take turns depending on my mood.

One question is how did you understand the readings. It’s hard enough nott o drift off during the mass as it is now. However if it is in a whole different language, it would be seem almost impossible to pay attention. I suppose it would make the homily all the more important and I would hope there would be an Enlgish translation available. On the other hand, did it make you pay attention even more attempting to try and piece it together and learn a little Latin while going (probably a good thing to know for many jobs anyways since there are so many Latin wors still in the English language). So to the person like me who has never expereinced it, what was it like?
 
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wjp984:
I am only 21 but I have always wondered what the Latin Mass was like. Just from singing in a choir for a few years I learned most of the mass parts in Latin as there are some really nice versions of it. I probably actually prefer singing in Latin since it fits my voice more. I have heard some good things about the Latin mass so it probably would be interesting to try it out. Also the idea of a unifed mass around the world is a nice idea since it would be the same everywhere correct? However, if thy do revert back to it they shoud still offer the mass in English as well. I probably would take turns depending on my mood.

One question is how did you understand the readings. It’s hard enough nott o drift off during the mass as it is now. However if it is in a whole different language, it would be seem almost impossible to pay attention. I suppose it would make the homily all the more important and I would hope there would be an Enlgish translation available. On the other hand, did it make you pay attention even more attempting to try and piece it together and learn a little Latin while going (probably a good thing to know for many jobs anyways since there are so many Latin wors still in the English language). So to the person like me who has never expereinced it, what was it like?
Drift off in the Novus Ordo mass?? I don’t believe it!!! Don’t say that too loud, you know full and active participation and all that.

First thing it is completely different then the Novus Ordo mass.
There are several types of Traditional Masses, the High Mass, the Low mass and the Dialogue Mass being the most common. The High Mass was sung, had a lot of incense and was real pretty. The Low Mass was much more quiet, in fact you usually couldn’t hear a lot of what was going on and didn’t have any incense. The Dialogue Mass was a variation of the Low Mass generally where the congregation made the responses that the server made to the Priest.

The Traditional Mass was a lot more contemplative than the Novus Ordo. Most people used Missals which were printed with the English on the right hand side and Latin on the left. Everything was explained in them, all the movements, what the priest was doing, what you were to do, everything. The Priest moved from the center of the altar to the sides at specific intervals He faced the altar, and normally the Blessed Sacrament throughout, turning to the congregation at certain times, to make the readings, homily etc… Once you knew where he was supposed to be at a certain time, and what he was doing there it was very easy to follow.

The readings, well they weren’t called the readings then, they were called the Epistle and the Gospel were in Latin and usually would be translated, especially the Gospel. The homily was generally called the sermon and it was always in the vernacular.

The consecration was accompanied by the ringing of bells so everyone should have known what had occurred even if they had drifted off. Communion was received kneeling and on the tongue, although some did receive standing or sitting.

After the Priest said in Latin go you are dismissed, Ite Missa est and the people respond Thanks be to God, where the Novus Ordo now ends, there were still several prayers to be said, the beginning of the Gospel according to John, "In the beginning was the word “etc, 3 Hail Marys, the Hail Holy Queen, another prayer, I forget the name, the prayer to Holy Michael the Archangel and then the Litany , Most sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us” 3 times.
 
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kleary:
The PROBLEM HERE is that in the Novus Ordo YOU DO NOT hear every word of the Tridentine Mass and most of the rubrics associated with the Tridentine Mass that taught, supported and defended the Catholic Faith were ELIMINATED in the Novus ordo.

You DO NOT hear the Ancient Roman Catholic liturgy in the Novus Ordo. In the Tridentine Mass you can actually actively and consciously participate! It is a KNOWN FACT at that.

Also, as I stated before there are REASONS in the TLM why YOU AS A LAY PERSON are NOT supposed to hear every word and reasons WHY you as a lay person are not to have the priest to look at you when speaking to you or addressing you.

Everything in the TLM teaches the Catholic Faith, every action, every rubric, every prayer- totally unambigiously.

Ken
I agree with the points you make here - in TLM, the liturgy itself catachizes clearly and consisely…there is no room for mistaking or missing what the mass is: the miracle that is taking place.

Instead of continously reforming and tweaking the N.O., I simply don’t understand why, if the point is to put the mass in the vernacular language of the people, the Church don’t (and didn’t to begin with) just translate - word for word - the text of TLM to English and keep everything else exactly the same. Why all the editing and abridging??? It boggles the mind!

Peace,

DustinsDad
 
As for your age, I will play that card. In many of your posts, you come across as smug and self-assured and contemptuous of your elders. That’s okay, I suppose, we all did it. But we got called on it, as well. You’ve said you’re considering Holy Orders. You might want to moderate both your attitude and your tone. We’ve already far too many priests who behave like spoiled little potentates. No one likes or listens to people who are “too big for their britches.” Arguments for the truth can be lost by their TONE, though they streak ahead in content. You are VERY obviously an intelligent young man. I have absolutely NO DOUBT whatsoever that you love our Blessed Lord. I have every confidence that if you follow truly after His good Will, you’d make a fine priest. The fact of the matter is that before you were born, I was already paying taxes. Someone did me the favor of reminding me of that when I was about your age, I’m doing you a favor by reminding you now. One of these days, sitting in a confessional and listening to some teenager go on and on, you’ll remember this. And you may even thank me.
I did see that thread you spoke of…where you use the word “nay” (who talks like that? A tad turgid, a little precious, along with “chap” and “huzza.” If you don’t want people to think you’re going through an adolescent phase, then don’t affect one). I’ve no objection to people desiring the TLM to be offered or the Pauline Rite in Latin per the Indult, esp. those who grew up with it (mainly those whom you quote). In the interests of strictly objective honesty, I can quote as many who don’t want to see a return to it and who prefer a reverently offered Pauline Mass in the vernacular. You don’t present a convincing argument in quoting them any more than I do in quoting the people who prefer the current rite.
When you make it to the UK, kindly remember me before the altar at the Shrine of the English Martyrs at the Brompton Oratory…you’ll love it! I was there in 1992, when I was 30…and you were 1.
In quoting them, I was also answering a different charge.

I apologise for the misunderstanding of your point, indeed I am sorry. I undertand, and hope you do as well, the confusion.

In all actuality, that is not the age card I mind all that much. the one I mind is when I am commenting on the Latin Mass and people tell me, “Well, you weren’t there” and leave the argument at that, thinking that I am 14 means I cannot have a valid point in regards to this.

As for the way I come across, I am working on this…or trying to at least. I do have rather a harsh tone, it is partly my personality, but also that when I hold an opinion, I hold it strongly (if you haven’t guessed). Additionally, I am indeed frustrated that I am only 14, and therefore incapable of doing all that much.

I suffer no illusions as to the fact that I am indeed 14 or an adolescent. I expect no one else to do so. What I expect is for people to debate an issue with me using something besides “You’re 14, what do you know?”

For the record, I have gone to several Pauline Masses that I loved, especially the one offered at St. Patrick’s in the City in DC (said in English). The problem is that I usually go out of most Masses with either the rough draft of a letter to the bishop mentally written, or just livid at the lyrics to a certain hymn. I especially get mad at my school when, during the sacred silence, the accompainist plays soft semi-“inspirational” music, meaning I cannot pray in silence, as I enjoy doing.

God Bless,
SPXII
 
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DustinsDad:
Instead of continously reforming and tweaking the N.O., I simply don’t understand why, if the point is to put the mass in the vernacular language of the people, the Church don’t (and didn’t to begin with) just translate - word for word - the text of TLM to English and keep everything else exactly the same. Why all the editing and abridging???
Answer: Because the vernacular alone would not have been suffiicient change to satisfy anti-Catholic Protestants whom influential Council members wished to impress. That was the Big Point.
It boggles the mind!
Yes, it certainly does, and for a real mind-boggler, read the history of the Council.

😦

Anna

]
 
I have nothing against the TLM, but personally do not care for the Mass in the latin language. Nothing against the latin language, I just don’t think saying/hearing it in latin makes it any more holy than in the common language.

Plus the post implies that the TLM is gone and in my area that is not the case - several churches here offer it either exclusively or in addition to the NO masses offered.
 
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slewi:
That’s because you are supposed to be a spectator. The priest is offering the lamb of our salvation to God, acting in place of Christ. We have nothing to do with it. We are meant to watch and then partake of the banquet.

Stephen
:amen:
maggiec
 
Rob's Wife:
Plus the post implies that the TLM is gone and in my area that is not the case - several churches here offer it either exclusively or in addition to the NO masses offered.
Dear Rob’s Wife, I promise I do not want to “blow your cover,” but on behalf of the many Catholics who look in vain for a reasonably nearby TLM, could you please tell us where you live…at least give a general area? :confused:

Most of us know no one in the whole USA that could make the above statement! (Or are you in another country?) 🙂

God bless you (and apparently He has!),

Anna
 
Anna Elizabeth:
Dear Rob’s Wife, I promise I do not want to “blow your cover,” but on behalf of the many Catholics who look in vain for a reasonably nearby TLM, could you please tell us where you live…at least give a general area? :confused:

Most of us know no one in the whole USA that could make the above statement! (Or are you in another country?) 🙂

God bless you (and apparently He has!),

Anna
Oklahoma. I don’t know how “reasonably close” they are, guess that depends on perspective.

In my county, there are 3 churches that offer a latin mass at least occsssionally (christmas, easter if nothing else). I think one of them only offers the TLM, but I could be wrong as I have never been to mass there. There’s also Clear Creek Monastary, which many Catholic families have moved to be closer to.

I would actually enjoy the TLM rites more than the regular mass, if they were in the common language. Just my personal preference.
 
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Marilena:
Iam just curious, would any of you love to see the TLM back, instead of the one we have now? I voted yes. I prefer the TLM. 🙂
The TLM never went away. I is offered in many places according to an Indult.

But I don’t care one way or the other. But I do prefer the current Mass of the Church.
 
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Kielbasi:
I understood the question to be whether or not the Latin mass ought to replace the current mainstream vernacular mass.

Any other interpretation wouldn’t make sense, as the TLM is available to everyone now, so it wouldn’t make sense to ask if folks want it “back” unless its understood that it would be back as the mass which is said everywhere as it was pre-1965.
It is NOT available to everyone now. I do not like driving 40 minutes every Sunday to Mass. My local parish church is one mile from my home and I as a Catholic have a right to Mass as it was back in 1962 in accordance with the Ecclesia Dei commission.

I know priests here in my local area who would LOVE to learn how to say the TLM also.

The thing about the liberals is that they HATE the TLM because it teaches the Catholic Faith- plain and simple without being ambigious.

Ken
 
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kleary:
It is NOT available to everyone now. I do not like driving 40 minutes every Sunday to Mass. My local parish church is one mile from my home and I as a Catholic have a right to Mass as it was back in 1962 in accordance with the Ecclesia Dei commission.
Ken
Certainly Latin mass isn’t equally available to everyone, but then the English mass isn’t equally available to everyone either.

But it is definitely available, virtually all American Catholics are within a day’s travel of a Latin mass site.

I don’t think the Ecclesia Dei Commission mandated that Latin mass be said in each and every parish church.
I know priests here in my local area who would LOVE to learn how to say the TLM also.
I’m sure that’s true, but the bishops have other issues to deal with, including staffing large mainstream parishes with thousands of families, and only a limited number of priests available. The bishops are doing the best they can under very trying conditions.

Increasing the number of priests on indult duty, reduces the number available for ordinary parish work, funerals, baptisms, marriages, whatever.
 
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kleary:
It is NOT available to everyone now. I do not like driving 40 minutes every Sunday to Mass. My local parish church is one mile from my home and I as a Catholic have a right to Mass as it was back in 1962 in accordance with the Ecclesia Dei commission.

I know priests here in my local area who would LOVE to learn how to say the TLM also.

The thing about the liberals is that they HATE the TLM because it teaches the Catholic Faith- plain and simple without being ambigious.

Ken
Okay, now you lose me.

**40 minutes? Give me a break. People drive further than that for much less without a thought. And many people have to drive that far to find a Catholic church at all. **

I do NOT hate the TLM in the least. I just don’t think hearing it in latin is what makes the mass holy.

I do however hate your presumption that the current order of the mass makes me less Catholic or an ignorant Catholic. I’m not a “liberal” anything just because I prefer to hear the mass in english. However, I will say your attitude appears to be in common with others of the TLM and does turn many away from any desire to attend, much less request for their parish, a TLM.
 
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kleary:
It is NOT available to everyone now. I do not like driving 40 minutes every Sunday to Mass. My local parish church is one mile from my home and I as a Catholic have a right to Mass as it was back in 1962 in accordance with the Ecclesia Dei commission.

I know priests here in my local area who would LOVE to learn how to say the TLM also.

The thing about the liberals is that they HATE the TLM because it teaches the Catholic Faith- plain and simple without being ambigious.

Ken
No, you don’t. The Holy Father URGED a generous application of the Indult, he didn’t MANDATE that each bishop had to provide a Latin Mass in ever parish. You have no such right. You don’t want to drive 40 minutes?!?!?! Where do YOU live? That’s a walk through the park where I’m from. It cannot mean much to you if you cannot manage 40 minutes.

I can’t speak for liberals-I’m not one-but I doubt they pay much attention to the TLM accept to observe that it would be better if people understood the Mass (I happen to agree). As an orthodox Catholic, I will assert that the Pauline Rite teaches the same Catholic faith-even more plainly, even more simply and with even less ambiguity…because the people can understand the language!
 
Rob’s Wife said:
Okay, now you lose me.

**40 minutes? Give me a break. People drive further than that for much less without a thought. And many people have to drive that far to find a Catholic church at all. **

I do NOT hate the TLM in the least. I just don’t think hearing it in latin is what makes the mass holy.

I do however hate your presumption that the current order of the mass makes me less Catholic or an ignorant Catholic. I’m not a “liberal” anything just because I prefer to hear the mass in english. However, I will say your attitude appears to be in common with others of the TLM and does turn many away from any desire to attend, much less request for their parish, a TLM.

Amen! If that’s the mindset that it engenders, then we don’t need it.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Amen! If that’s the mindset that it engenders, then we don’t need it.
Kirk, I’m so disappointed that you would “AMEN” such a viscious ad hominem attack. (To make it ICEL friendly, that means an attack based on blind prejudice, not reason.)

I had hoped someday we might be able to attend Holy Mass together and hold hands while saying the Pater Noster in Latin, as a symbolic, unifying gesture. Your racalcitrance makes me dubious that it will ever happen. 😦
 
Rob’s Wife said:
Oklahoma. I don’t know how “reasonably close” they are, guess that depends on perspective.

In my county, there are 3 churches that offer a latin mass at least occsssionally (christmas, easter if nothing else). I think one of them only offers the TLM, but I could be wrong as I have never been to mass there. There’s also Clear Creek Monastary, which many Catholic families have moved to be closer to.

I would actually enjoy the TLM rites more than the regular mass, if they were in the common language. Just my personal preference.

Thanks, Rob’s Wife. Now who is your generous bishop who grants all these indults? :confused:

God bless,

Anna
 
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