Would you maintain sexual intimacy with a spouse addicted to porn?

[LongingSoul]

I’m also kind of glad that my wife is a convert and not a well-bred catholic woman as I’m not certain I want her dolling out medicinal suffering.

It’s really very bullying to keep insisting that the woman is ‘dolling out suffering’ or ‘punishing’… when again and again you’ve been assured by women in the situation and by the articles I’ve posted from Covenant Eyes, that the use of porn by a spouse degrades a woman and makes her experience of sex ugly. I can only think you either haven’t read any of the posts correcting you or you have some kind of misogynous problem.

 

[Sugabee43]

It’s really very bullying to keep insisting that the woman is ‘dolling out suffering’ or ‘punishing’… when again and again you’ve been assured by women in the situation and by the articles I’ve posted from Covenant Eyes, that the use of porn by a spouse degrades a woman and makes her experience of sex ugly. I can only think you either haven’t read any of the posts correcting you or you have some kind of misogynous problem.

Yes; this! Plus, I’ll say it, because I’m living this life and feel entitled: Burt, stop being an *****hat.

 

[whm]

I suppose this would to some extent relate to how much it viscerally hurts the offended spouse. My hypothesis is that a well-bred, well-to-do Catholic woman is probably going to be wounded by it much deeper than a woman that has a history herself, since the later is more desensitized both by the pervasive surrounding culture and her own experiences. The former is how you ought to feel (properly: it is objectively beneficial to be grievously wounded by adultery, both because of the recognition of the evil itself, and as a medicinal means to repairing the rift: the hurt of the offended party is an instrument which may produce sorrow in the offender. Or: the suffering of the wife also exists for the benefit of the sinner. She becomes a sacrificial lamb, or a Christ/Marian figure. This is the faculty of human emotion serving in a positive manner towards the salvation of others (along with the sanctification of the self). The suffering takes on the kind of “missionary” role that is described in Romans, when contending with situations of hardship that were not merited. This is a contrast from a conscience “burned with a hot iron”. If there is no longer an innate repulsion to sin, there is no longer a motivation to flee from it.

My original idea, that it is wiser for the wife to continue conjugal relations, I think was influenced by the notion that to do otherwise would greatly risk a complete rupture. The fault in that thinking is the rupture already exists anyway. Although a suspension of conjugal relationship might indeed cause a separation, you’re forcing the issue to a conclusion. The husband might abandon ship or he might undergo the necessary spiritual mortification. If conjugal relations persist, it may lead to a perpetual dysfunction in the marriage, where both Baal and Christ are active in the marriage for year after year.

I think the addicted man, if they are the type to leave their spouse would do so whether relations are suspended or not. Porn addicts mentioned in these types of threads are usually different types of men, they generally don’t leave. If there is a separation it is the other spouse who forces it. Ironically the man who flat out leaves, tends to be a more respected, they also are more likely (in my opinion) to have real affairs rather than porn addiction. The man who has a porn addiction and stays, has big respect hurtle in addition to the trust hurtle to overcome. It has a very negative impact on their confidence and personality, they become very selfish too. The whining for relations to avoid the temptation to porn is quite unattractive. This is one reason I recommend suspending relations until the individual is porn/masturbation free for 3 months or more, so that the effects have a chance to wear off and a healthier relationship can be restored.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

It’s really very bullying to keep insisting that the woman is ‘dolling out suffering’ or ‘punishing’… when again and again you’ve been assured by women in the situation and by the articles I’ve posted from Covenant Eyes, that the use of porn by a spouse degrades a woman and makes her experience of sex ugly. I can only think you either haven’t read any of the posts correcting you or you have some kind of misogynous problem.

Punishment can come from a deep sense of hurt and disgust, that doesn’t make it not punishment. I have an oversharing coworker who told me he hasn’t kissed his wife in 5 years (and may never again) because she performed oral sex on another man. His actions are the result of a very real sense of disgust and betrayal and, in a sense, he probably can’t help it. But I still say his actions are a form of punishment. I liked whm suggestion of a 120 day detox period. It’s not an open ended withdrawal from married life that can drag on for years and years. And it also gives the naughty spouse the hope that they can serve their time, make amends, and then be reintegrated back into the marriage

 

[whm]

It’s really very bullying to keep insisting that the woman is ‘dolling out suffering’ or ‘punishing’… when again and again you’ve been assured by women in the situation and by the articles I’ve posted from Covenant Eyes, that the use of porn by a spouse degrades a woman and makes her experience of sex ugly. I can only think you either haven’t read any of the posts correcting you or you have some kind of misogynous problem.

I think you make lots of good points. However, these treads tend to be very one sided at times. Alternative views can get stamped out, and people who might be struggling through very difficult issues can get frustrated. We need to be careful not to call each other names or jump to conclusions about other posters.

 

[alphawoman]

I think you make lots of good points. However, these treads tend to be very one sided at times. Alternative views can get stamped out, and people who might be struggling through very difficult issues can get frustrated. We need to be careful not to call each other names or jump to conclusions about other posters.

What “alternative” point of view do you see being stamped out? That women who don’t wish to have sex for a period of time with their porn addicted husbands are meting out a perverse justice vengefully? That women are entitled to lesser dignity because of some posters’ lack of grounding in sexual ethics?

If a poster repeatedly and willfully continues to post anti-Catholic recommendations, then it is abdicating responsibility as Catholics on a CATHOLIC FORUM to emphasize Chirch teaching.

 

[whm]

What “alternative” point of view do you see being stamped out? That women who don’t wish to have sex for a period of time with their porn addicted husbands are meting out a perverse justice vengefully? That women are entitled to lesser dignity because of some posters’ lack of grounding in sexual ethics?

If a poster repeatedly and willfully continues to post anti-Catholic recommendations, then it is abdicating responsibility as Catholics on a CATHOLIC FORUM to emphasize Chirch teaching.

Well, the above is what I am talking about. Also speculating that someone is a misogynist or must be a porn addict is against forum rules, and for good reason. An emotionally charged issue for sure. We need to remember we are here to help and receive help.

 

[Sugabee43]

Well, the above is what I am talking about. Also speculating that someone is a misogynist or must be a porn addict is against forum rules, and for good reason. An emotionally charged issue for sure. We need to remember we are here to help and receive help.

Unless I’m not reading far back enough, I don’t see where she called Burt a porn addict. And as a person going through this, I can say that his posts have NOT helped me at all.

 

[whm]

Unless I’m not reading far back enough, I don’t see where she called Burt a porn addict. And as a person going through this, I can say that his posts have NOT helped me at all.

That is because I never addressed a post to her prior to that. She choose to respond out of context to my post. My original post did not include any examples or call anybody out. I am simply answering a question and trying to keep the thread civil. I suggest you read my original post(#161). I included examples in my response to her, because she asked for them.

Consider that some of these posters you disagree with are trying to work things out and receive help for themselves. (also included in my original post) Again a really emotionally charged issue for many people.

I am sorry you are dealing with this.

 

[Xantippe]

Punishment can come from a deep sense of hurt and disgust, that doesn’t make it not punishment. I have an oversharing coworker who told me he hasn’t kissed his wife in 5 years (and may never again) because she performed oral sex on another man. His actions are the result of a very real sense of disgust and betrayal and, in a sense, he probably can’t help it. But I still say his actions are a form of punishment. I liked whm suggestion of a 120 day detox period. It’s not an open ended withdrawal from married life that can drag on for years and years. And it also gives the naughty spouse the hope that they can serve their time, make amends, and then be reintegrated back into the marriage

I really don’t like the use of the word “naughty” in this context. Naughty is raiding the brownies or staying up until 3 AM playing a new video game.

Also, let’s go back to the drunk driving example.

If the drunk driver has been clean and sober for a whole 120 days, is it that unreasonable to say, “No, I don’t feel comfortable with you borrowing my car yet”?

As people have pointed out, a car is a far less valuable item than one’s body and psyche, and yet there is the expectation that the body should be handed over no questions asked on a fairly brisk schedule, in order not to be deemed a big meanie.

If a couple is in some sort of counseling and is making some sort of forward progress (perhaps in other areas), I think the sinned-against spouse deserves a lot of space. Your no-kiss guy is doing wrong for 1) sharing this very personal information with you and 2) for (presumably) not being in counseling and making an effort to move forward. Also, I have my suspicions that he probably isn’t so squicked out by his wife that he refuses the same activity from her. In which case, ewwww.

 

[Kelfa28]

Punishment can come from a deep sense of hurt and disgust, that doesn’t make it not punishment. I have an oversharing coworker who told me he hasn’t kissed his wife in 5 years (and may never again) because she performed oral sex on another man. His actions are the result of a very real sense of disgust and betrayal and, in a sense, he probably can’t help it. But I still say his actions are a form of punishment. I liked whm suggestion of a 120 day detox period. It’s not an open ended withdrawal from married life that can drag on for years and years. And it also gives the naughty spouse the hope that they can serve their time, make amends, and then be reintegrated back into the marriage

A marriage where either spouse is purposely with holding intimacy because of negative actions the other spouse has inflicted upon them is broken.

I believe that it is up to the offending spouse to work hard to be accountable and rebuild trust within the relationship.

I don’t think you can set an date as to when intimacy can begin again.

I also think that the offender should understand that they are the problem and it’s on their shoulders to fix it and to expect that marriage integration may take a long time.

Clearly both parties need counseling, both marriage and individual.

If my husband committed adultery…my trust with him and the marriage would be totally shattered and it would take some seriously heavy lifting on his part for me to feel safe again.

To tell me I’m punishing my husband for acts he committed against the marriage and I’m now on a time line to integrate the marriage again in order to fix it is unreasonable and victim bashing at it’s finest.

Victims need counseling, time and accountability for them to feel safe again.

It’s like sending a battle-worn, PTSDed soldier back into combat within 6 months of the diagnosis because the war needs him and someone else has determined that this time frame is acceptable.

The truth is…this soldier needs counseling and time. He may want to go back to war but he needs time to heal first.

 

[Xantippe]

A complicating factor is that the sinned-against spouse can’t really know for sure if the porn-using spouse is actually clean and sober, especially over a short period of time. It’s not uncommon for a porn-user to successfully manage to hide use for years, so going without being caught for 4 whole months is nothing.

The lack of certainty as to whether the porn-user has really stopped probably contributes a lot to delays and hesitancy.

 

[Xantippe]

A marriage where either spouse is purposely with holding intimacy because of negative actions the other spouse has inflicted upon them is broken.

I believe that it is up to the offending spouse to work hard to be accountable and rebuild trust within the relationship.

I don’t think you can set an date as to when intimacy can begin again.

I also think that the offender should understand that they are the problem and it’s on their shoulders to fix it and to expect that marriage integration may take a long time.

Clearly both parties need counseling, both marriage and individual.

If my husband committed adultery…my trust with him and the marriage would be totally shattered and it would take some seriously heavy lifting on his part for me to feel safe again.

To tell me I’m punishing my husband for acts he committed against the marriage and I’m now on a time line to integrate the marriage again in order to fix it is unreasonable and victim bashing at it’s finest.

Victims need counseling, time and accountability for them to feel safe again.

It’s like sending a battle-worn, PTSDed soldier back into combat within 6 months of the diagnosis because the war needs him and someone else has determined that this time frame is acceptable.

The truth is…this soldier needs counseling and time. He may want to go back to war but he needs time to heal first.

Right.

 

[whm]

.

If the drunk driver has been clean and sober for a whole 120 days, is it that unreasonable to say, “No, I don’t feel comfortable with you borrowing my car yet”?

120 days was a minimum suggestion. The purpose I originally mentioned it for was that it might be counterproductive to reinforce porn craving with marital relations. After 120 days many of the effects of porn will have lessoned and a healthy sexual relationship could be helpful at that point. I didn’t propose it as some sort of penance or claim that the other spouse should be over their hurt by then. This was in response to the OP’s original post. The thread has shifted somewhat from her question.

 

[Sugabee43]

A marriage where either spouse is purposely with holding intimacy because of negative actions the other spouse has inflicted upon them is broken.

I believe that it is up to the offending spouse to work hard to be accountable and rebuild trust within the relationship.

I don’t think you can set an date as to when intimacy can begin again.

I also think that the offender should understand that they are the problem and it’s on their shoulders to fix it and to expect that marriage integration may take a long time.

Clearly both parties need counseling, both marriage and individual.

If my husband committed adultery…my trust with him and the marriage would be totally shattered and it would take some seriously heavy lifting on his part for me to feel safe again.

To tell me I’m punishing my husband for acts he committed against the marriage and I’m now on a time line to integrate the marriage again in order to fix it is unreasonable and victim bashing at it’s finest.

Victims need counseling, time and accountability for them to feel safe again.

It’s like sending a battle-worn, PTSDed soldier back into combat within 6 months of the diagnosis because the war needs him and someone else has determined that this time frame is acceptable.

The truth is…this soldier needs counseling and time. He may want to go back to war but he needs time to heal first.

Yep. I went to individual counseling after years of not going; and we have also seen other counselors both separately and together. The ongoing conclusion is that unless and until the addictive behavior stops, it is not reasonable to expect me to be able to ‘ante up’ anytime soon. And it’s correct to think that I really have no idea if he’s staying sober- I’m not with him 24/7. If you own a smartphone, you can take it with you. At this point, this soldier wants to stay stateside, thank you very much!

 

[whm]

A complicating factor is that the sinned-against spouse can’t really know for sure if the porn-using spouse is actually clean and sober, especially over a short period of time. It’s not uncommon for a porn-user to successfully manage to hide use for years, so going without being caught for 4 whole months is nothing.

The lack of certainty as to whether the porn-user has really stopped probably contributes a lot to delays and hesitancy.

Absolutely, the porn addict needs to commit to sobriety and achieving this goal. It is wonderful if the spouse can help, but if the addict is not committed it is pretty unlikely to work. If the spouses can openly talk about this during the attempted recovery, I think the chances of success go up substantially, that is a really, really, really tough thing for the hurt spouse to do though. there are other forms of accountability out there though, such as SA and men’s groups.

 

[Xantippe]

120 days was a minimum suggestion. The purpose I originally mentioned it for was that it might be counterproductive to reinforce porn craving with marital relations. After 120 days many of the effects of porn will have lessoned and a healthy sexual relationship could be helpful at that point. I didn’t propose it as some sort of penance or claim that the other spouse should be over their hurt by then. This was in response to the OP’s original post. The thread has shifted somewhat from her question.

I don’t think I was arguing with you, but with Burt Macklin.

Back to the original question, I’d say that the sinned-against spouse is free to play it by ear, but that they ought to be cautious, and not to allow the porn-using spouse to use guilt or coercion or to use them selfishly. (Sarcelle had the excellent phrase somewhere in one of these discussions of viewing the wife as a sort of sexual scratching post for the husband. That’s not a good model for Christian marriage, and a wife doesn’t need to tolerate sexual selfishness.) For the sinned-against spouse, I think it’s not primarily a moral issue, but more a practical issue of self-defense and self-preservation.

 

[Kelfa28]

120 days was a minimum suggestion. The purpose I originally mentioned it for was that it might be counterproductive to reinforce porn craving with marital relations. After 120 days many of the effects of porn will have lessoned and a healthy sexual relationship could be helpful at that point. I didn’t propose it as some sort of penance or claim that the other spouse should be over their hurt by then. This was in response to the OP’s original post. The thread has shifted somewhat from her question.

To whom does the 120 days effect?

Is it beneficial to the offended or offender?

Plus…who is the one being helped and benefiting from the intimacy?

The addicted spouse who is using porn but needs the marital embrace to curb the habit or the offended spouse who feels used and hurt from the mess his/her spouse has created?

The way I’m reading this and some of the other comments from other posters is that the party who has been hurt should be doing most of the work and should be setting aside their feelings for the benefit of the marriage.

How much more used can she feel?
She is setting aside a need to feel safe and loved in order to satisfy her husband’s libido so he won’t go and watch porn.
How is having marital intimacy any different then just sitting down and getting the job done in front of the computer if she is basically made to feel guilty for withholding intimacy because she is hurt by her husband’s actions and how he now makes her feel.

Like it or not…it goes both ways.

She needs to heal just as much as he does.

 

[whm]

To whom does the 120 days effect?

Is it beneficial to the offended or offender?

Plus…who is the one being helped and benefiting from the intimacy?

The addicted spouse who is using porn but needs the marital embrace to curb the habit or the offended spouse who feels used and hurt from the mess his/her spouse has created?

The way I’m reading this and some of the other comments from other posters is that the party who has been hurt should be doing most of the work and should be setting aside their feelings for the benefit of the marriage.

How much more used can she feel?
She is setting aside a need to feel safe and loved in order to satisfy her husband’s libido so he won’t go and watch porn.
How is having marital intimacy any different then just sitting down and getting the job done in front of the computer if she is basically made to feel guilty for withholding intimacy because she is hurt by her husband’s actions and how he now makes her feel.

Like it or not…it goes both ways.

She needs to heal just as much as he does.

Sorry, but I don’t think you understood my posts at all.

btw, this is the OP’s original post:

"My husband is seeking help but it’s an uphill battle. There are good days and bad days. Sometimes I feel like his unfaithfulness in his heart should make me think twice about seeking his affection, but denying us both of that bond doesn’t help anything. What do you do or what would you do? "

 

[Kelfa28]

Yep. I went to individual counseling after years of not going; and we have also seen other counselors both separately and together. The ongoing conclusion is that unless and until the addictive behavior stops, it is not reasonable to expect me to be able to ‘ante up’ anytime soon. And it’s correct to think that I really have no idea if he’s staying sober- I’m not with him 24/7. If you own a smartphone, you can take it with you. At this point, this soldier wants to stay stateside, thank you very much!

That is the worst part about porn addiction.

It’s so easy to hide and keep a secret. It’s even easier to hide then a full-blown affair is.

With an affair you can do everything you can to keep it hidden…secret phones, emails, social media under an assumed name and changing passwords…but there is always another person who can spill the beans.

With pornography…you can easily keep the secret if you take all of the precautions above but also keep your mouth shut.

This soldier obviously feels safer stateside. Why take the risk if you can’t get hurt?