Would you permit your child to attend a birthday party of an ILLEGITIMATE CHILD???

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animalluvr77:
WhiteDove,
if Jesus were here on this earth would he say that it were our place to say that we should judge those homosexual/unmarried parents and not send our own children to that child’s party? No! Just sending a child to a birthday party is not going to hurt anyone,
Again, these are two separate issues. Judging these people, or anyone, is wrong. That was never the issue under discussion. Jesus did clarify this matter. To put words in the mouth of Christ beyond what he said is speculative at best.

Also, there is harm to exposing children to the homosexual lifestyle, in person or on television. It normalizes and marginalizes, abnormal behavior and grave sin.
 
Just an FYI for the younger generation that seems to think the word ‘illegitiamte’ is a slur. When I was growing up it was used quite frequently. Here is what Webster has to say:

**Main Entry: il·le·git·i·mate
Pronunciation: -'ji-t&-m&t
Function: adjective
1 : not recognized as lawful offspring; specifically : born of parents not married to each other
**

It is, and always has been, a legal tern refering to the unmarried status of the mother when the child was born. The child did not take the father’s name and had no right to inheritance. Remember, there was a time, not so very long ago, when there was no DNA testing, kids.

Also, harping on one’s dislike of the word is totally missing the point of the discussion at hand, which has a far wider scope.
 
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pnewton:
Again, these are two separate issues. Judging these people, or anyone, is wrong. That was never the issue under discussion. Jesus did clarify this matter. To put words in the mouth of Christ beyond what he said is speculative at best.

Also, there is harm to exposing children to the homosexual lifestyle, in person or on television. It normalizes and marginalizes, abnormal behavior and grave sin.
I think you were missing my point. I have been to many children birthday parties and I don’t remember one time anyone telling all of the kids about anyone elses sexual preferences. It is a birthday party! No matter if it is at a homosexual parent’s home or a single parent’s home. It is a birthday party!! Unless it is brought to the child’s attention the child does not know the difference! All they care about is the cake and ice cream. Is it really that other child’s fault that it was brought into a homosexual home and now has to live there and have a birthday party there and now hope that people will show up? No, I don’t think so. So shouldn’t we be the better person and be the one to show that child that someone does care about them whether they only have one parent or 2 of the same sex parents?

WhiteDove, I really do agree with what you were saying! :yup:
 
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animalluvr77:
Unless it is brought to the child’s attention the child does not know the difference!

WhiteDove, I really do agree with what you were saying! :yup:
This would be a consideration. Can the child know the difference? This is why each situation must be taken on its own merit. The case on the other thread dealt with obvious and blatant homosexuality. If you wish to not focus on the sexual aspect, then focus on the disordered and dysfunctionality of having two moms or dads. This by itself is enough to protect a child and protecting the child is the primary duty of the parent.

You bring up the delicate problem of loving the child of two homosexual parents, an unfortunate situation we have allowed in this country. Still, an effort must be made to love and support these children in this situation.
 
When attempting to refute the concept of illegitimacy as a reasonable principle under secular law you say, “To incur loss without fault by law or custom is either collective punishment (i.e. together with the parent) or a generic injustice.”

But the child really “loses” nothing…because they never had it in the first place. No one has a natural right to inheritence…

Like Aquinas said, we cannot really say that the king’s second son is being “punished” just because he does not get to inherit the throne like his older brother, who is the legal heir under the laws of sucession.

Are you suggesting that illegitimate children should take their father’s last name? Would they even want that?

A terrible stigma has been attatched to illegitimacy. This is probably for cultural reasons other posters noted, such as the fact that cases of illegitimate children who were not legitimately adopted, but rather raised by their single biological mother, occured primarily in the lower classes. But just because something is stigmatized unjustly does not mean that it is a bad condition in and of itself which must be abolished. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath-water here…the existence of the state of illegitimacy makes legal sense.

Honestly, illegitimacy is no big deal, but it DOES exist as a reasonable and justifiable condition under the Law.

Remember, the father’s inheritence can ultimately go to whoever he wants. If he wants to share his inheritence with his illegitimate son, he can legitimize him through marrying the mother, legally adopting him, putting him in the Will, etc…and if he wants to deprive his legitimate son of inheritence, he can denounce him.

Aquinas specifically testifies that:

“a legitimate son is sometimes deprived of his inheritance on account of his fault”

So the father can ultimate give his inheritence to whoever he wants…

BUT what are the courts to *assume *if his intentions are not specifically stated before his death?

Then the reasonable legal assumption is that the father wanted his legitimate children to have a certain portion of the inheritence (because he never specifically excluded them) and that he did not want his illegitimate child to (because he never specifically included them)…

Can you imagine the court battles that would have occured before DNA testing if there was no such state as illegitimacy? If a man died suddenly leaving no will, the court normally would give the benefit of the doubt to his LEGAL heirs…his legitimate spouse and children. But what if all sorts of people showed up claiming they were his children from other women? How would that work, how would it be handled?

And even now that there is DNA testing, do you honestly believe that the court should always assume that the father wanted any illigitimate biological children of his to be his heirs…even if he never legally appointed them as heir and may never have recognized them, or even seen or contacted them for years? I don’t buy it…its quite obvious in most such cases that the father who didn’t leave a will would not have wanted illigitimate children to be his heirs.

And yet, I think you’d agree that on the other hand it IS safe to assume that he wanted his legal children to inherit UNLESS he had previously denounced them.

Illigitimacy is merely a legal thing as to who the court should give inheritence to when the man’s intention is not specifically stated.

And the assumption is this: unless he specifically excluded them, he wanted his legitimate children to inherit…and unless he specifically included them, he did not want his illegitimate children to.

And that** is** a reasonable legal assumption. It may not be true 100% of the time. Heck, the man could have been planning to leave all his money to the Church…but when it comes to conducting an orderly society and court procedures as to who should be given inheritences when the man’s will is not stated…it makes sense.
 
It saddens me greatly that the answer to the decline in society is to just ignore it and go with the flow. After all, abortions, shacking up, out of wedlock children, etc. have all become the “norm”, so why not homosexuals adopting and raising children, getting married, etc. Of course, the children in these situations are innocent. However, that doesn’t mean we are called to just sit back and let it happen!!!

I again go back to if a parent is not comfortable with a situation, they should not feel obligated to send their child into it, so as to not hurt someone’s feelings. That is not a good enough reason to compromise your values.

My daughter has a good friend with lesbian "grandmas
". Her mother’s mom divorced her dad and lived with a variety of lesbian lovers for years. She has now settled in with her current longtime lover. My daughter plays with the friend all the time. We have her over. She has met the lesbian gmas at a birthday party in a park. However, when invited over to a function at the “gmas” home—it’s a big fat NO. What is WRONG with that. I am kind to the friend, to the gmas. I just will not allow my daughter to their home where it is clear that they live together and make no secret of the fact that they share a bedroom.

She has another friend from school with a lesbian mother who shacks up with her girlfriend. The friend lives with dad and stepmom. My daughter goes to this friend’s house (dad/stepmom) and has even spent the night there. The lesbian mom and lover have come to softball games, etc. I have talked to her casually as I would any other mom. Would I allow my daughter to the lesbian moms house? NO I would not. They are very overt regarding their sexuality in public, I’m sure it is much more so in their own home.

In both cases, I have not shunned these unfortunate children. However, I draw the line at allowing my daughter to these homes where it is clear that these women sleep in the same bed and claim that they are married. I also do not allow my daughter to stay the night at a friend’s house in which the dad has a live-in girlfriend. I allow them to play together at our house or in neutral situations, but not at the kid"s house. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this. I should be able to raise my children in a way the imparts my values and morals to them. I should not just go with the flow and say, well, the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket, so I’ll just go ahead and go along for the ride.
God Bless
Giannawannabe
 
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Lilyofthevalley:
White Dove, unfortunately, I have the “number” on some of those posters on that particular thread. Especially the one who was posting about that poor kindergartner who had only two kids show up at his birthday party. This mother didn’t even take the time to think maybe the kid has an emotional disability or is autistic.
Seriously, the majority of those on that thread are SO IN love with their convictions that they lack the ability to feel compassion for another human being even an innocent child. I can not be convinced that this is what Jesus taught.
Dear Lily,

If I remember correctly that mother let her daughter go to that party where she was one of only two guests and she posted that the boy wasn’t autistic. She responded to your post, maybe you didn’t see it. [post=588056]** click here! **[/post]
 

If I remember correctly that mother let her daughter go to that party where she was one of only two guests and she posted that the boy wasn’t autistic​

So what? Maybe he has emotional problems or mental illness, or ADD or ADHD.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:

If I remember correctly that mother let her daughter go to that party where she was one of only two guests and she posted that the boy wasn’t autistic​

So what? Maybe he has emotional problems or mental illness, or ADD or ADHD.
Well then what was your point with having this particular mother’s “number” she sent her child to the party didn’t she?
 

Well then what was your point with having this particular mother’s “number” she sent her child to the party didn’t she?​

I guess the number’s up for me, because I assumed she did not send her child. Very sorry.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:

Well then what was your point with having this particular mother’s “number” she sent her child to the party didn’t she?​

I guess the number’s up for me, because I assumed she did not send her child. Very sorry.
It’s quite alright, no need to apologize it was an understandable mistake. I couldn’t figure out what you meant before.

God bless
 
I guess poor Aquinas isn’t going to get rest, but after all, he did write what he wrote, claiming to be right. So…
When attempting to refute the concept of illegitimacy as a reasonable principle under secular law you say, “To incur loss without fault by law or custom is either collective punishment (i.e. together with the parent) or a generic injustice.”
But the child really “loses” nothing…because they never had it in the first place. No one has a natural right to inheritence…
Following that logic, we can say that no one has a natural right to tax exemption nor an obligation to pay, therefore there’s no moral problem making commoners pay 60% flat tax and exempt nobles. Why not?

Inheritance is of the relatives. Illegitimacy is a condition which specifically excludes from inheritance. That’s because the union between the parents of the illegitimate children is deemed ungodly and therefore it isn’t regarded proper for the child to inherit from the father. The children are products of sin and products of sin had better be hidden from public view because all they remind of is shame.
Like Aquinas said, we cannot really say that the king’s second son is being “punished” just because he does not get to inherit the throne like his older brother, who is the legal heir under the laws of sucession.
The bastard son may well be the even older brother and the reason why he is excluded is that he is a bastard. The general condition is that the oldest one inherits. However, illegitimate ones are excluded. The exclusion of illegitimate heirs was a gradual process, intensifying over time, and the time of Aquinas wasn’t the peek of it. There was no starting condition of “the oldest legitimate son inherits”. Illegitimacy was developed as an excluding condition.
Are you suggesting that illegitimate children should take their father’s last name? Would they even want that?
Why not? Are you suggesting that they don’t have the right to? Throughout history, there are many instances of illegitimate children bearing fathers’ names, although still being barred from succession.

As for wanting, I know people who wanted and people who didn’t want. Fathers who insisted on giving the name, mothers who insisted on fathers giving the name. Things like that happen.

In this era, where DNA testing is available, I see no reason whatsoever why people should be denied their fathers’ names. In fact, in my country, the father is not even asked and no court proceding is required. Act of birth with the father’s surname is all you need. Inheritance is the same, by the way.

But perhaps you are going to say that the whole process is, in fact and of its nature, legitimatisation.

How about a thread entitled, “Would you permit your child to attend a birthday party of a LEGITIMATISED CHILD???”, then?

People who shack up own up to their children. In all official documents, they are included as parents. In most civilised jurisdictions, illegitimate children inherit all the same as legitimate ones, if parentage is established. So are the children actually still illegitimate?

Next, if legitimacy is merely a legal distinction in the law of inheritance, what the heck does it matter when deciding if to allow the child to visit the birthday party of such a child? I don’t see anything. Anything, apart from stigmatising the child as the fruit of sin.
But just because something is stigmatized unjustly does not mean that it is a bad condition in and of itself which must be abolished.
Your whole sentence contracts to: “unjust doesn’t mean bad”. How is that point of view Catholic? Whatever is unjust is wrong and bad. If all iniquity (as in wrongful act) is sinful, how can “unjust stigmatisation” be anything else than wrong? Or what do you mean by “bad”? Convenience or inconvenience is non-issue when we are talking morals.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath-water here…the existence of the state of illegitimacy makes legal sense.
What exactly sense does it make if the parentage is established?
 
Remember, the father’s inheritence can ultimately go to whoever he wants. If he wants to share his inheritence with his illegitimate son, he can legitimize him through marrying the mother, legally adopting him, putting him in the Will, etc…and if he wants to deprive his legitimate son of inheritence, he can denounce him.
Illegitimate children are already considered denounced on the account of the sinful circumstances surrounding their conception.

Also, parents cannot disinherit children without the latter’s fault. Why then make it special for illegitimate children? Are they innately at fault? Or do they have to bear the blame for the fornication or adultery?
“a legitimate son is sometimes deprived of his inheritance on account of his fault”
So the father can ultimate give his inheritence to whoever he wants…
Contrary to what your or Aquinas try to demonstrate, that actually proves that illegitimate children are assumed to be at fault. With a legitimate child, you need fault. With an illegitimate one, you don’t need it. So the fault is already there. Either this, or illegitimate children are inherently inferior to legitimate ones.
Then the reasonable legal assumption is that the father wanted his legitimate children to have a certain portion of the inheritence (because he never specifically excluded them) and that he did not want his illegitimate child to (because he never specifically included them)…
Why have specifically to include illegitimate ones while exclude legitimate ones to make changes?

And what you say is not always true. Legitimatisation was extremely difficult and the difficulty of it rose over time. When middle ages came to an end, the father’s will was nowhere close to sufficient for it. For nobles’ children, even acts of parliament were required.
Can you imagine the court battles that would have occured before DNA testing if there was no such state as illegitimacy? If a man died suddenly leaving no will, the court normally would give the benefit of the doubt to his LEGAL heirs…his legitimate spouse and children. But what if all sorts of people showed up claiming they were his children from other women? How would that work, how would it be handled?
But DNA testing is available now, so why carry over the ancient protections against inheritance by people of doubtful blood relation? But this is a side topic, actually. The thread is entitled, “Would you permit your child to attend a birthday party of an ILLEGITIMATE CHILD???”, not a “child of unmarried parents”. The stigma goes on the child as the fruit of the sinful intercourse.

Also, how is the father’s decision to make the child inherit or not, relevant in whether we should let our child attend such a child’s party? Is the child’s worth determined by the father’s act, one way or the other? Does inheritance make the child a proper party host for our precious children?

How about “Would you permit your child to attend a birthday party of a DISINHERITED CHILD???”
And even now that there is DNA testing, do you honestly believe that the court should always assume that the father wanted any illigitimate biological children of his to be his heirs…even if he never legally appointed them as heir and may never have recognized them, or even seen or contacted them for years? I don’t buy it…its quite obvious in most such cases that the father who didn’t leave a will would not have wanted illigitimate children to be his heirs.
And what is the difference, exactly? The only answer I’m going to get is “lawful union”. Also, the father has no power to refuse to recognise children that are biologically his. Next, relatives always get something if an outside heir is chosen. What’s more, legitimate children need fault to be disinherited - so if illegitimate children are assumed disinherited, they are assumed to be at fault or unsuitable heirs because of being born out of wedlock, i.e. organically worse.
And the assumption is this: unless he specifically excluded them, he wanted his legitimate children to inherit…and unless he specifically included them, he did not want his illegitimate children to.
And what rights should the legitimate or illegitimate birth give the father? Why should he be free to disinherit illegitimate children while restricted in disowning legitimate ones (fault)?
 
quote]And that is a reasonable legal assumption. It may not be true 100% of the time. Heck, the man could have been planning to leave all his money to the Church…but when it comes to conducting an orderly society and court procedures as to who should be given inheritences when the man’s will is not stated…it makes sense.
In my country, you can’t leave all money to the Church without giving anything to your legal heirs unless they are at fault. Legitimate or illegitimate, whoever hasn’t been adopted inherits from his biological parents. As I said before, the father has no way of preventing his biological children from wearing his name, either, if parentage is proven.

So what is the argument against these laws going to be? Of course, how wrong and gross it is even to ponder making illegitimate children equal with legitimate ones. After all, they are born out of wedlock, so they shouldn’t have any rights.

So it ultimately comes down to being conceived in sinful conditions and therefore deemed unsuitable, no matter how you try to explain it.

The whole problem contained is this topic is if illegitimate children should be shunned because they are the fruit of sin.

When Pope John Paul II was on a pilgrimage in one Latin American country, a woman who had travelled a long distance despite highly advanced pregnancy, gave birth to a child. The Pope immediately blessed the child. Some genius of moral theology informed the Pope that the child was illegitimate. The Pope said, “So what? I’ll bless him once again.”

So what was the Pope supposed to say? “You are right, monsignor. Take the child away from me because his very existence is a sin?”

And I still don’t know if I’m allowed a birthday party and the time is running up. Only three days left.
 
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pnewton:
I would not even consider the circumstances of a child’s birth in making a decision, only the current moral environment. One possibility I would consider in some of these close decisions is to attend the party or event with the child and act as close chaperone.
Great answer! I would look at all the aspects of a childs home life and have tended to be harder on some of those children who have two parents but do not discipline or care what their children watch on television. Those who allow my daughter or son in their childs bedroom when they are not of the same sex. There are so many other big issues.
 
To even ask such a question is cruel to the child. How heartless! And this is the culture of LIFE???
 
Yes - otherwise my daughter wouldn’t be able to visit half her cousins on my side of the family! lol!
 
WhiteDove said:
*It would depend on my assessment of many different factors. *

You make a good point.

I’m going to have to change to “it depends.”

If that illegitimate child is also an ax murderer, then I think we would be sending regrets.

Alan
 
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