Would you prefer to live in a Catholic theocracy?

[goofyjim]

The Church is not meant, and was never meant to be a national government here on earth. It is meant to lead us to our spiritual home. It can inform our consicence and should but the better government is still a democracy.

 

[Little_Mary]

Forgive my scanty knowledge of this, but…

Isn’t that Domino’s Pizza guy building a Catholic village somewhere in Florida? An entire communitiy with homes, schools, stores, theaters…??

 

[Mirdath]

Forgive my scanty knowledge of this, but…

Isn’t that Domino’s Pizza guy building a Catholic village somewhere in Florida? An entire communitiy with homes, schools, stores, theaters…??

Yes. I heard about it years ago, but never bothered to follow up on its progress. In any case, it’s still beholden to civil law.

 

[Dale_M]

Isn’t that Domino’s Pizza guy building a Catholic village somewhere in Florida?

Yes, its called Ave Maria. Here is a recent newspaper article about it: A Town Made for Catholics

 

[fnr]

Looking to the past, I think there’s good reason to doubt a Catholic theocracy.

First, let me admit that I’m a believer in the phrase, “absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Second, let me list a few places in history where we had close to a Catholic theocracy, and where they seem not to do things that really supported what I see as Catholic values.

(1) The Papal States. Pope Alexander VI who held temporal power as head of the Papal States. He fathered an illegitimate son and daughter, the former of which, Caesare Borgia, went on to become the template for Niccolo Macchiaveli’s The Prince. Anyone reading that finely-written book would see that the Borgias sought power based on force and fear, and not religious principles.

(2) Spain under Franco. Generalissimo Francisco Franco was a dedicated Catholic to whom much religious authority was given. In 1941, the Vatican gave Franco the final call on who would fill vacant bishoprics in Spain. Franco was, by any objective account, responsible for thousands of extralegal killings, both within his rebellion against the democratically-elected government which he superseded and after he won control of the country. Under the banner of his Catholic faith, he committed crimes which even today make the heart fear. Guernica’s bombing by Nazis was by most accounts, his strike at the traditional set of Basque civil society. A “symbolic” strike on a civilian center is hardly an upward thing to do.

(3) Spain under the Reyes Catolicos. Under Fernando and Isabela, Spain fervently prosecuted the Inquisition, questioning the veracity of “converso” and “morisco” faiths, and killing many. While many say that “things were different then,” and that we can never understand the world back then, I have a different view.

Let’s not be so eager to covet power. Though we may start with noble intentions in a spirit of humility, it seems very hard to maintain. That’s probably one of the key messages of the religious J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings.

And let’s not forget, it’s impossible to “make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.” That in itself seems completely at variance with Catholic or deontological ethics.

 

[rr1213]

Duck! Prepare for incoming! The concept of a Catholic Monarchy has been attacked! Good luck, man.

 

[Lepanto]

we have had such in the past, and it did not work. Read the history of France under the Catholic monarchs and their Cardinal advisors and ministers.

Then read the history of France during and after the Reign of Terror and compare the quality of life of the average citizien. There really is no comparison.

Also compare the before / after situation in Mexico.

 

[distracted]

Looking to the past, I think there’s good reason to doubt a Catholic theocracy.
Pope Alexander VI who held temporal power as head of the Papal States. He fathered an illegitimate son and daughter, the former of which, Caesare Borgia, went on to become the template for Niccolo Macchiaveli’s The Prince.

Those who are corrupt in secular power will be corrupt in Church “power”… I don’t know much about Pope Alexander VI but it sounds like he just was plain and simple, not a true Christian… (meaning he wasn’t one to sacrifice his own personal desires to follow the teachings of Christ…). There are those in the Church who are followers of Christ and those (maybe most?) who really are not.

(2) Generalissimo Francisco Franco was a dedicated Catholic to whom much religious authority was given. Franco was, by any objective account, responsible for thousands of extralegal killings,

. This brings up an interesting point (which i started to make w/ my first comment)… “Devout Catholic” does not always (unfortunately) = “devout Christian”… People show by their actions what they truly believe and this man did not fully accept
the teachings of Christ… (and his Church)… That was the problem, not giving him too much “power”…

(3) While many say that “things were different then,” [Inquisition] and that we can never understand the world back then, I have a different view.

I totally agree…

Let’s not be so eager to covet power. Though we may start with noble intentions in a spirit of humility, it seems very hard to maintain.

It is difficult to impossible to corrupt a person who is sold out to Jesus Christ - in other words one who is COMMITTED to Him for life… I

I think a lot of people think Commitment - whether to Christ or whomever… is a four-letter word…

 

[RobHom]

I won’t go into any real details, so I’ll just say that I am a very big proponent of “the separation of church and state”. However, if I had to live in a church controlled state… I’d rather it be a Catholic state, as I would know what to expect…or at least I think so.

 

[distracted]

I won’t go into any real details, so I’ll just say that I am a very big proponent of “the separation of church and state”. However, if I had to live in a church controlled state… I’d rather it be a Catholic state, as I would know what to expect…or at least I think so.

A Big Amen to that!!! :clapping:

 

[RobHom]

Forgive my scanty knowledge of this, but…

Isn’t that Domino’s Pizza guy building a Catholic village somewhere in Florida? An entire communitiy with homes, schools, stores, theaters…??

As a town, village or city in the State of Florida, be it populated by persons of any secular or religious group, it is still held to the secular laws of the State, and its zoning and density rules per the “Master Plan for Development” established by the State of Florida. Its laws cannot abrogate any established common laws of the State.

It can only have “deed restrictions” of record, which may or may not preclude others of different faiths or creeds from buying property or living there. When you are delving into real estate laws, you cannot abrogate Federal or State laws with respect to Equal Housing Laws, etc.

But, I see nothing with wrong with the concept at all. Many times in man’s history…people of the same faith, ethnic origin, or credo have existed together in communities. I might even like to live in a place like that! Imagine having a gated community that keeps all solicitors out…and so on…not such a bad idea.

But I wonder who would be the Mayor, City Council, and on the Home Owners Association Board?

 

[rr1213]

As a town, village or city in the State of Florida, be it populated by persons of any secular or religious group, it is still held to the secular laws of the State, and its zoning and density rules per the “Master Plan for Development” established by the State of Florida. Its laws cannot abrogate any established common laws of the State.

It can only have “deed restrictions” of record, which may or may not preclude others of different faiths or creeds from buying property or living there. When you are delving into real estate laws, you cannot abrogate Federal or State laws with respect to Equal Housing Laws, etc.

But, I see nothing with wrong with the concept at all. Many times in man’s history…people of the same faith, ethnic origin, or credo have existed together in communities. I might even like to live in a place like that! Imagine having a gated community that keeps all solicitors out…and so on…not such a bad idea.

But I wonder who would be the Mayor, City Council, and on the Home Owners Association Board?

I don’t think that a deed restriction based on the faith of the property owner would be legally enforceable.

 

[RobHom]

Have you even noticed the demographics of our government? Practically all of it is white, male, straight, upper-class, and Christian. There’s a handful of Jews, one Muslim, and one atheist in the entirety of Congress, and I doubt I need to reiterate our President’s much-flaunted faith. The Supreme Court features two Jews, and the rest are Christians – five of whom are Catholic.

You’re 100% correct.

Underdog? Please. The deck’s already stacked for you guys, and if you can’t win with a royal flush I don’t even know what to say.

And, for what it’s worth, when Christians’ rights have been threatened, the ACLU’s been right there.

I looked at the link…and while I don’t care for some of the ACLU’s antics…they do what they say they are going to do.

Personally, as a Catholic… I see no persecution of “Christians” and I certainly don’t feel like I am a member of the “underdog” class… But I do think that “christians” who claim to be persecuted in the US…are just a little bit around the bend… and I think they are the worst whiners and complainers about nothing that you can shake out of a tree. Usually members of some strange offshoot group with very questionable ideas.

 

[RobHom]

I don’t think that a deed restriction based on the faith of the property owner would be legally enforceable.

It may or may not be. Deed restrictions based on age have been upheld. And deed restrictions based on other factors have been, to include the deed restrictions against any decorations or non-conforming items placed in common areas, to include Christmas trees, wreaths, menorahs…

I doubt that, after having read the description of Ave Maria Community and how its going to be set up…that there will be a restriction based on the faith of the property owner, however, a deed restriction could be placed on what kinds of activities a homeowner may engage in. Trust me when I say this: Deed restrictions in FL are very serious…many people have found this out by failing to take the time to read them, research them even to the extent of going to the County Courthouse and reading them as they are listed on the OR books.

For instance, were an atheist motorcycle rider to purchase a home there, and there was a deed restriction against motorcycles in the community…the FL Courts would summarily uphold the restrictions…and the atheist would have to buy a car or walk to and from his home. I lived in Deed Restricted developments where you could not have a commercial vehicle of any sort… The only way to get around it was to drive a pick up truck with removable signage, and no visible vestiges of commercial activity. I owned a pick up…but it was not used for business…so it was not a problem. Nor could you park an RV or Boat on your property.

 

[rr1213]

It may or may not be. Deed restrictions based on age have been upheld. And deed restrictions based on other factors have been, to include the deed restrictions against any decorations or non-conforming items placed in common areas, to include Christmas trees, wreaths, menorahs…

Restrictions based on age are generally going to be legal only if they meet the exception for “housing for older persons” under the Fair Housing Act. As for restrictions based on religion, they are prohibited by the Fair Housing Act, 32USC 3604. More interesting would be if Ave Maria qualifies for the exception for religious organizations under 32 USC 3607. I sort of doubt that this situation is what that exemption is intended to cover, but who knows how a court would rule on the issue. Also, even if the exception applies to Ave Maria, would it apply to subsequent sales by the original purchaser? I could see a Catholic home owner wanting to sell to a Protestant buyer and challenging the deed restriction on the grounds that the home owner does not qualify as a religious organization under the exemption.

usdoj.gov/crt/housing/title8.htm

 

[fnr]

It is difficult to impossible to corrupt a person who is sold out to Jesus Christ - in other words one who is COMMITTED to Him for life… I

I wish that I could fully believe that. A true, sustained commitment takes constant renewal of one’s faith, a deep commitment to humility, and a willingness to sanctify one’s heart in a manner that leaves you open to changing your behavior.

Unfortunately, power itself seems to have a corrupting influence, or at the very least, institutional and psychological feedbacks that promote pride, self-importance, and self-righteousness. Call it temptation (as in “lead us not into…”).

A truly dedicated follower of Christ who continually re-examines his or her own will, and is humble enough to admit error is generally not the type of person who seeks power. It seems to me unlikely, though perhaps not impossible, that anyone actively seeking political power also has sufficient humility to maintain behavior not heavily influenced by pride. That’s probably why any papabili, or candidate pope, who seems to be actively seeking the office, is highly unlikely to be elected to the office of Supreme Pontiff.

And sadly, in scripture we receive exceptionally little – if any – example about the proper exercise of temporal power. Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, and none of his followers ever held such power before the canon of the Bible was complete. Only after the Christanization of the Roman Empire and about the time of St. Augustine’s City of God did Christians actually become a population with political power that required thinking about it.

 

[fnr]

But, I see nothing with wrong with the concept at all. Many times in man’s history…people of the same faith, ethnic origin, or credo have existed together in communities. I might even like to live in a place like that! Imagine having a gated community that keeps all solicitors out…and so on…not such a bad idea.

But the question is whether people should seek to live that way. I think too many times Catholics and other Christians who view “the Culture” as antithetical to their values carve out little niche markets for themselves and their families. No doubt makes it easier to inculcate Catholic (or other) values in children. However it seems to me that that not only shields the “niche” members from “the Culture,” but it also shields “the Culture” from the values that the “niche” members would uphold.

 

[chosen_people]

In fact we have ample historical examples of Catholic theocracies. The final one was under the reign of Pope Pius IX and ended in the latter part of the 19th century. He forced the Jews of Rome back into the ghetto, stripped them of all civil and legal rights, forced them to attend special schools and services to learn about Catholicism, carried away a Jewish five year old boy forever from his family after a former maid claimed that she had “baptized” the child with bath water some four years earlier,made Jews wear special clothing to mark them as Jews etc. However Jews were comparatively “lucky” in that their religion was recognized as opposed to say Hinduism.

Of course going back farther, historians have a term for that period of european history when Catholic church power was at its zenith. They call it the “the dark ages”.

Sounds tempting but I think we’ll pass.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Israel does not treat the Palestinians as HUMAN BEINGS let alone the history lesson we just read.

The treatment of the Palestinians is going on TODAY, not in the Dark Ages. Those people are victims in a modern world.

I would love to live in a Catholic theocracy.

 

[Jack_Fisher]

…historians have a term for that period of european history when Catholic church power was at its zenith. They call it the “the dark ages”.

Sounds tempting but I think we’ll pass.

that would be the high middle ages. during “the dark ages”, the survival of Catholicism was in the balance.

I suppose if one could voluntarily immigrate to a a Catholic theocracy the life would be merely repressive, considering how the laws would practically be enforced and how the rights of privacy and most other civil liberties would end.

imposing a Catholic theocracy in this country would be an unmitigated disaster for everyone, especially for Catholics; there would be blood in the streets.