Would you prefer to live in a Catholic theocracy?

[johnstown_johnn]

What keeps the Theocracy from becoming a puritanical totalitarian state?

It would seem to be an issue of enforcement and punishment. Homosexuality, masturbation, and other sexual “sins” would be illegal - but to what end? The punishment could go from either just a small fine or warning all the way to long-term jailtime. If it was long-term jailtime, I think we’ve moved into a totalitarian state. If it’s a small fine… well, it can be argued that it’s just a theocracy.

Actually, no, I think any fine or punishment imposed by the government of any sort for homosexuality or masturbation or fornication is evidence of a puritanical totalitarian state.

So, I think it’s really a matter of perspective. YOU would say that’s just a theocracy. I, however, would say it’s totalitarian.

Masturbation or fornication under a Catholic theocracy would be SINS and not CRIMES.

These acts are absolved by the Sacrament of Penance. Fines and incarceration are not meted out.

The structure would be as Italy and Spain were in the mid-20th Century. Abortion, divorce (although annulments could be granted under extreme cases) would not be permitted. And that would be a major link with Heaven.

 

[rr1213]

The structure would be as Italy and Spain were in the mid-20th Century.

Italy was fascist until around 1944 and Spain was fascist until after Franco died in 1975. Neither place was worthy of admiration from a political sense.

 

[jack_hawkins]

If there was an opportunity to vote for, or establish the Pope as President of the US in 2008 (or any nation) where the doctrine of the Catholic Church was the law of the land- would you?

Why or why not?

I’m not sure I want to qualify the scenerio with assumptions like there would be no corruption as likley would occur. I think there might be real reasons why it shouldn’t or couldn’t happen…but if it could?

What kind of immigration policy would it set? Drug policy? R&D? Foreign policy?

If we truly believe what we believe…why wouldn’t we want that?

I think theocracy is bad, and when I read certain things in the NT about obeying the authorities and rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, I see no intention that there should be Christian theocracies. I think theocracies lend themselves to people professing faith falsely to get power for one thing. I can imagine the Anti-Christ being a product of a theocracy.
It would be great if government was mindful of Christianity, but Tony Blair is a professed Christian, his wife a Catholic, and they have presided over the biggest erosion of Christian values in the UK ever IMO.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Italy was fascist until around 1944 and Spain was fascist until after Franco died in 1975. Neither place was worthy of admiration from a political sense.

Franco saved Spain from the communists. Thousands of American communists went over to Spain to fight for takeover of that Country. Abraham Lincoln Brigade is what some of them fought under.

There were the invading communists against General Franco. Franco prevailed and preseved Spain from going over to an atheistic invader. Franco was loved by his counrtymen and was a good president. Thoe were good years for Spain.

Mussolini, also fought off a communist takeover of Italy. It was his close alliance with Hitler that did him in.

That aside, Spain and Italy were shining stars in Europe prior to WW 2.

 

[rr1213]

Why?

Why are Fascist Italy and Fascist Spain not worthy of admiration? Well, for starts, both regimes were brutal, tyrannical, murderous, racist dictatorships…

 

[rr1213]

Franco saved Spain from the communists. Thousands of American communists went over to Spain to fight for takeover of that Country. Abraham Lincoln Brigade is what some of them fought under.

There were the invading communists against General Franco. Franco prevailed and preseved Spain from going over to an atheistic invader. Franco was loved by his counrtymen and was a good president. Thoe were good years for Spain.

Mussolini, also fought off a communist takeover of Italy. It was his close alliance with Hitler that did him in.

That aside, Spain and Italy were shining stars in Europe prior to WW 2.

You, sir, need to read your history books. The Spanish Republic was leftist, but not communist. Many international communists did fight for the Republic and, similarly, the fascists forces lead by Franco were supported directly by Nazi Germany (the Condor Brigade among others). Spain under Franco was a dictatorship, albeit of a variety a bit less brutal than Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin. Italy under Mussolini was also a brutal dictatorship and an international aggressor, having prior to WW2 invaded Ethiopia, an ancient Christian kingdom in Africa previously independent for centuries. That invasion was particularly nasty, using airpower against Ethiopian forces armed with muskets. The invasion was condemned by the League of Nations (so much for Italy beinga “shining star” prior to WW2).

 

[johnstown_johnn]

communists were far more brutal. Franco was a good and beloved leader. the communists and history revisionists turned the truth on its head.

 

[Exalt]

Masturbation or fornication under a Catholic theocracy would be SINS and not CRIMES.

These acts are absolved by the Sacrament of Penance. Fines and incarceration are not meted out.

The structure would be as Italy and Spain were in the mid-20th Century. Abortion, divorce (although annulments could be granted under extreme cases) would not be permitted. And that would be a major link with Heaven.

So what about the people who don’t believe divorce is a immoral (i.e., muslims, certian protestant groups)?

 

[Montalban]

communists were far more brutal. Franco was a good and beloved leader. the communists and history revisionists turned the truth on its head.

He was beloved by some, but don’t forget about half his nation had fought against him.

 

[Montalban]

Masturbation or fornication under a Catholic theocracy would be SINS and not CRIMES.

Aren’t they sins already?

The structure would be as Italy and Spain were in the mid-20th Century. Abortion, divorce (although annulments could be granted under extreme cases) would not be permitted. And that would be a major link with Heaven.

Would you also (like those nations at that time) offer support to Nazi governments?

 

[johnstown_johnn]

So what about the people who don’t believe divorce is a immoral (i.e., muslims, certian protestant groups)?

That’a a very good question. I can only speculate off the top of my head.

To attain a divorce for a Muslim, Jew or Protestant they can travel over the border to France to attain a divorce…similar to a “Mexican divorce.” It would be recognized in other societies but can only remarry outside the Catholic theocracy since the divorce would not berecognized. If one divorce is allowed then ALL divorces would be allowed as well…this would disrupt the fiber of the CT.

For a time, I believe, (could be wrong here) Utah allowed polygamy but disallowed by the other 47 States. So, if a Mormon, say, had 7 wives they would not be recognized except for the original by neighboring States.

So, we had a sort of dilemma here in the U.S. Later, the high courts outlawed polygamy and the Mormons had to comply…it became the “Law of the Land.” The sky did not fall after outlawing polgamy. Multiple divorces (to the extreme) can result in incest, unknowingly; similar to the Wefare system. Single parent homes can have multiple children sired by multiple biological fathers. This, if becomes commonplace, can destroy an entire society. An individual’s identity of self is destroyed.

There must be some controls for a society to propagate in God’s order of things. As Jesus said, “…they became as one flesh…”

Good question…it can make for complex discussion… if we dare to examine thoroghly and honestly the ramifications of destruction of the original family unit.

I suppose your next head-banging question would be, “How about sperm banks?” Spare me that one, please.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Aren’t they sins already?

Would you also (like those nations at that time) offer support to Nazi governments?

Spain and Italy were NOT Nazis. This is an outrageous escalation of categorizing a people. Spaniards and Italians NEVER called themselves Nazis…some folks who want to twist history do that. You can travel the world over and never meet friendlier, warmer and more sincere people than the Italians and Spaniards.

You are calling them “Nazis” and that is something they would never call themselves that abominable word.

So, the answer to your Q is “Yes, I would offer support to Spain and Italy because they were NOT Nazis.” You placed them under the same umbrella as Hitler. That is un-Christian and untrue.

Calling a people names as such is really not allowed on this forum.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

He was beloved by some, but don’t forget about half his nation had fought against him.

HALF of his nation DID NOT fight against him. It was primarily OUTSIDERS from different parts of the globe that recruited to fight against Spain and Franco. Large amounts of Communists from AMERICA wetn over to takeover Spain. Other communists from other countries were recruited to overthrow Spain.

General Franco was revered and loved for saving Spain from the grip of the atheistic communists. He was a hero.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

You, sir, need to read your history books. The Spanish Republic was leftist, but not communist. Many international communists did fight for the Republic and, similarly, the fascists forces lead by Franco were supported directly by Nazi Germany (the Condor Brigade among others). Spain under Franco was a dictatorship, albeit of a variety a bit less brutal than Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin. Italy under Mussolini was also a brutal dictatorship and an international aggressor, having prior to WW2 invaded Ethiopia, an ancient Christian kingdom in Africa previously independent for centuries. That invasion was particularly nasty, using airpower against Ethiopian forces armed with muskets. The invasion was condemned by the League of Nations (so much for Italy beinga “shining star” prior to WW2).

So, the communists were the good guys? And, no, I don’t need a history lesson.

 

[rr1213]

So, the communists were the good guys? And, no, I don’t need a history lesson.

Sorry, I’m afraid that you do need a history lesson if you believe that fascist Spain and fascist Italy are regimes worthy of admiration. Both were brutal dictatorships that denied basic human rights to their people and oppressed anyone who did not toe the line. The significant difference between the two is that Spain was essentially isolationist after the Civil War and Italy was an imperialist dictatorship that attempted to create a new Roman empire (please read about the Italian military invasions of Ethiopia, Albania, Greece, France and the occupation of Libya, among other things…thank God the Italians were militarily incompetent or there would have been more problems).

 

[Kaninchen]

That aside, Spain and Italy were shining stars in Europe prior to WW 2.

As you will appreciate, many do not agree with/shudder at your interpretation of history and I don’t want to argue with you on the subject – we’re too far apart for discussion.

I do think that you have to realize though that there is no way that you’d find volunteers outside, I would guess, a small proportion of Catholics for a project of the marriage of Church and State that existed in Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Pavlic’s Croatia or Tiso’s Slovakia – Mussolini’s Italy was somewhat different (differently reactionary) but no more palatable. De Valera’s democratic Ireland might be another matter for those with dreams of ‘theocracy’ – but that existed in the context of a peasant state for a peasant Catholic people, not the kind of complex capitalist society that exists today (Ireland included).

For those of us who are not Catholic, the announcement of intent of establishing a 21st Century equivalent would certainly be the first stage en route to Civil War.

 

[cckz7]

we have had such in the past, and it did not work. Read the history of France under the Catholic monarchs and their Cardinal advisors and ministers.

The French Revolution was instigated by the Masons… The French monarchs were not what they werre made out to be…

I woiuld love to be under a Catholic theocracy…

 

[cckz7]

I don’t think a pope should rule in the same way presidents and kings do… (did)… His job is to teach the faithful about living in a Christian way…

However, many states have or have had Catholic governors and i can speak for one of those states and say that things were far better when that was the case!!

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Sorry, I’m afraid that you do need a history lesson if you believe that fascist Spain and fascist Italy are regimes worthy of admiration. Both were brutal dictatorships that denied basic human rights to their people and oppressed anyone who did not toe the line. The significant difference between the two is that Spain was essentially isolationist after the Civil War and Italy was an imperialist dictatorship that attempted to create a new Roman empire (please read about the Italian military invasions of Ethiopia, Albania, Greece, France and the occupation of Libya, among other things…thank God the Italians were militarily incompetent or there would have been more problems).

There are facist regimes here today; far more totalitarian, far morte brutal than any before.

Spain and Italy were not brutalo…that’s only in your biased mind.

Franco was a hero. Stalin was the personification of the devil himself. Study up !

 

[Montalban]

HALF of his nation DID NOT fight against him. It was primarily OUTSIDERS from different parts of the globe that recruited to fight against Spain and Franco. Large amounts of Communists from AMERICA wetn over to takeover Spain. Other communists from other countries were recruited to overthrow Spain.

General Franco was revered and loved for saving Spain from the grip of the atheistic communists. He was a hero.

I don’t deny large amounts of foreign *volunteers *came to the aid of the Republic. But you’re selectivity of facts betrays you again, because Franco also had outside help - from Fascist volunteers, such as in the infamous Condor legion.

Here’s an instance of Franco’s love towards his people during that war, as brilliantly captured by Picasso…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImageicassoGuernica.jpg
Guernica was devastated by fascist bombers during the war. Franco was soooo beloved ! ROFL! :dancing: