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Montalban
Guest
You obviously do. Although the Communists were on the side of the Republic, the republic also had (albeit not enough) support from the democracies, Britain and France.
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Montalban
Guest
And of course the reduction of Jews to second class status under Mussolini was a cause for celebration
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Rach620
Guest
Just today I read George Weigel’s The Cube and the Cathedral about the crisis in modern Europe (which he observes could soon be America’s crisis), which is really an identity crisis rooted in their outright rejection of God in politics. These are the problems I think that all the proponents of ‘Catholic theocracy’ on this thread are reacting to.
But his response is most definitely not to turn to hope in a ‘Catholic theocracy’. That would be a futile, anachronistic effort. (And one is able to hold this position even while agreeing that the political systems of the Middle Ages have a lot of lessons to offer to us today.)
Instead, Weigel calls the Catholic Church the greatest champion of democracy in our world today, and he puts forth a pretty strong argument, akin to the one I have been making, about why a union of the Church and the State is not a good thing.
Vatican II’s Gaudium et Spes, along with the writings of JPII and now Benedict XVI, most certainly point to the most viable political future for the West to lie NOT in theocracy (which too often in history has failed, converting into problematic absolutist monarchies or totalitarian states), but in democracy which recognizes that true freedom, which originates in God, must be protected by a State which recognizes the God from which freedom comes.
But his response is most definitely not to turn to hope in a ‘Catholic theocracy’. That would be a futile, anachronistic effort. (And one is able to hold this position even while agreeing that the political systems of the Middle Ages have a lot of lessons to offer to us today.)
Instead, Weigel calls the Catholic Church the greatest champion of democracy in our world today, and he puts forth a pretty strong argument, akin to the one I have been making, about why a union of the Church and the State is not a good thing.
Vatican II’s Gaudium et Spes, along with the writings of JPII and now Benedict XVI, most certainly point to the most viable political future for the West to lie NOT in theocracy (which too often in history has failed, converting into problematic absolutist monarchies or totalitarian states), but in democracy which recognizes that true freedom, which originates in God, must be protected by a State which recognizes the God from which freedom comes.
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Montalban
Guest
Yet modern democracy was born in non-Catholic nations, such as Britain and the USA
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Rach620
Guest
A common misconception. American historians would have us believe that modern democracy came about in the 1688 Glorious Revolution in Britain; Continental historians would say that it arose in the French Revolution of 1789. Neither is correct.
Modern democracy’s roots are deeper than that, and they lie in Christian European civilization of the Middle Ages.
As Weigel says…:
So the solution to political problems today is not to turn to theocracy, it is to recall the roots of Western democracy in order to make it function as it should.
Until we recognize that the ailments of modern democracy are problems which those who seek to thoroughly secularize modern governments themselves cause, and are not problems inherent in any democratic system, nothing will improve.
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Montalban
Guest
Actually they are. I don’t deny that democracy had its roots earlier planted, but like the sower who went out to sow, where democracy fell on poor soil, it didn’t grow. It’s simply a fact that it did first in Britian and America and these weren’t Catholic.*
Earlier than that, there were were communcal/democratic groups amongst non-Catholic heretics such as the Anabaptists, and Hussites.
*Although I recognise that Britain at the time of Revolutionary France had taken some backward steps. Revolutionary France itself divorced itself of Catholicism very quickly.
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Exalt
Guest
Discussions like these seriously frighten me. I hope no religious people in the United States are seriously thinking about instituting any kind of theocracy. Freedom of religion would just be thrown out the window. Want to get a divorce? Sorry, this is a Catholic theocracy. The government allows no divorce. Share a romantic kiss another man or woman in public? Sorry, this is a Catholic theocracy. Homosexuality is illegal. Thinking of converting to Islam? Sorry, this is a Catholic theocracy. Apostacy is illegal.
It’s a frightening thought, indeed.
It’s a frightening thought, indeed.
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Montalban
Guest
Indeed, why do people believe that a Catholic theocracy will be better than other theocracies?
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
There was a communist faction in Italy that was pushing to take over the Country. Mussolini stopped them in their tracks.
Mussolini also decimated the Mafia in Italy.
What did him in was his alliance with Hitler. Mussolini was more of a secularist but the Church was never threatened under Mussolini–it was the COMMUNISTS that threatened the Chuch.
Mussolini did not treat Jews as second class–show us, please, where you learned that ridiculous statement.
Mussolini put the pressure on Italy’s POLITICAL enemies and they were the COMMUNISTS.
Look back after the fall of Mussolini . He was hung by his heels and charred along with his mistresss. It was the COMMUNISTS that executed Mussolini and NOT the general populace. Mutilation is NOT a Christian act even for its worse enemies…but communists have no reservations about that (mutilation).
The Communists have been very active in the politics of Italy, then and now. Over time leftwing, Godless atheists infiltrated the media and institutions of higher learning thereby softening generations’ belief in God. This is overtly present in today’s Italy.
The prized goal of the communists in Italy and Spain today is to make the Church irrelevant and finally make it disappear.
But the good news is: IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. The Church will be persecuted, yes, we can all see that very clearly but She (Church) will be here until the Last Day even if it is not much more than a remnant.
Eventually, the Euro Union will be controlled from within by the un-Godly stench of communism. This where the anti-Christ will assume global power.
But take heart! It will be for only a short time. All that persevere and cling to the Faith need never worry; others, sadly, will sell their souls.
Similarly, Spain is being engulfed by the communist movement today; a very clandestine penetration.
But Franco of Spain was a great hero and held the communists at bay. After his death the Reds infiltrated all forms of propaganda and we can see now the results. .
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Montalban
Guest
Irrelevant. I’m not arguing that one is better. But YOU are.
Not true. The moment Sicily was ‘liberated’ by the US the mafia re-emerged. They were in hiding.
Irrelevant. No one forced him into this. He helped Germany when Germany was weak by agreeing to allow the Anschluss to take place - despite Italy’s support for Austria. Hitler never forgot this help.
Start off with…
“The Fascist regime passed in autumn 1938 anti-Semitic laws, which excluded foreign Jews, prohibited all Jews from teaching and excluded them from the Fascist Party. Legislation enacting racial discrimination were progressively put in place, in accordance to the “scientific racism” theories upheld in Fascist political reviews, such as La Difesa della Razza. Jews were excluded from the military and from the administration, while an “aryanisation” of Jewish goods was put in place — actually, an expropriation of their goods. An anti-Semitic hate campaign was put in place, while the legislation was strictly applied. Neither the monarchy nor the Church protested against the latter.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Italy
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johnstown_johnn
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The sanctions were political and not ethnic.
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Montalban
Guest
They were placed on Jews.
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
Were they communists? If so, only those that were communists…this was NOT an ethnic assault; it was purely political. Same goes for ethnic Spaniards who were communists. Trying to create a Holocaust/persecution attachment to Spain and its beloved leader is outrageous and mendacious.
Your recollection of history is absurd and is like something out of a Tom Clancy novel.
No ethnic group was persecuted by Franco. He was a fair and Christian leader whose base bneliefs were mercy and kindness. Franco was a fine example of a Christian defending his Country from the scourge of communism. Could be that is why the leftists rewrote history. You are a product of that revisionist history or so it seems.
Where do you get this stuff?
Praised be the Holy Trinity
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
Deviant behavior is not a good thing. It lowers those to a sub-spiritual being. “…romantic kiss another man…” Is this what you would like to see as a social norm? “…frightening thought, indeed…”
I’m OK with outlawing deviant behavior in the public square.
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Exalt
Guest
Why? Why can’t you just ignore what those two people are doing and go about your business? They’re not hurting you.
Besides, what happened to liberty? I can’t seriously believe that you would outlaw a *kiss. *That’s unbelievable. They’re not doing anything obscene or dangerous. They just kissed. So what. It’s not like yelling fire in a crowded building. I don’t see what’s so dangerous about it.
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rr1213
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Ignorance is bliss.
Unfortunately ignorance is also dangerous. I’ll give you a hint…if you are ever offered an “opportunity” to live in a fascist country, decline the offer. You will be glad that you did.
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rr1213
Guest
European civilization during the Middle Ages was not as oppressive as authoritarian states today, but it certainly was not democratic either. I would agree with Montalban that in modern times democracy originated in Britain, although an argument could also be made for Iceland (although it did not have the influence of Britain). This is not to say that democracy in Britain was perfect by any means because it was not. Democratic rule has never been perfect, just better than the alternatives.
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rr1213
Guest
It si a frightening thought, but not one over which I would lose much sleep. Our Constitution guarantees religious liberty and free speech to all of us, no matter our religious beliefs. A someone mentioned before, there would be a civil war in this country before we allowed people to abolish those rights. It is simply not going to happen. Can there be backsliding? Sure, some of the recent actionsby the government in the war against terrorism fall into that category, but even there it swinging the right way again.
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
The thread is about Catholic theocracy; you seemed to have forgotten that. Under a secular society where everything goes there’s plenty of those to accomodate.
A Catholic theocracy gives Christian people a choice of separating themselves from the secular. Under a society predicated under God’s will deviancy is not allowed. You do not have to live in that kind of society…for me, I would love it.
As for “…outlaw a kiss…” it is a public display that is out of synch with nature and morals…a lot like streaking (running around nude in front of a captive audience.
I wouldn’t buy any real estate in Soddom & Gomorrah, woulld you?
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Montalban
Guest
The citation doesn’t distinguish between political parties of Jews, just that they were Jews.
Making your quip about a work of fiction more like pot calling kettle black.
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