Would you prefer to live in a Catholic theocracy?

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johnstown_johnn said:
“Viciously/” Is there a kinder, gentler way to destroy enemies one to the other? Doesn’t “visiously” apply to the interloping communists? Or is it a one-way view that Franco, a Spaniard, defended his country from outside invaders that wanted to overthrow Spain and make it a Marxist State?
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Any evidence? Or is this all just based on your opinions? And can you please explain how you reconcile Franco being a dictator with Human Rights. And *De Rerum Novarum. *

These assertions need support
  1. Franco’s opponents were interlopers and outsiders
  2. All those executed received just trials.
  3. All those who opposed him were Communists.
And did you realise you mixed up Spain & Italy several times yet?

Thank you.
 
It’s been done before without success. Absoulte power coprupts, and I think focusing on the eternal (as opposed to the temporal) is the mission of the Church. Government, on the other hand, must focus squarely on both. A division of power and authority is best–as long as the government one lives under is a just and democratic one. Also, just as I would not want to live under Islamic rule such as the Taliban, I know there are many good non-Catholic citizens who would oppose this–so, it’s not fair to them either. Fun concept to think about perhaps, but (said as a Catholic who works in state government) it just is not a practical or prudent perspective. Division of power reflects the fundamental difference in priorities between the state and the Church.
 
distracted said:
The only problem is that in the U.S. many states (hopefully not all) don’t even adhereto the Constitution… Poor people are treated differently by the “justice” system than rich people… So maybe some Christianity in government would be called for…:rolleyes: 😦 🤷
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A little true Christianity in the spirit of ‘love thy neighbor as thyself’, perhaps – but that isn’t a theological teaching, it’s ethical, no need for a theocracy to support it. And I see precious little of that spirit in peoples’ daily lives; how much worse would it be in government?
 
johnstown_johnn said:
The State here in Ameica is demanding that catholic hospitals perform abortions… That is a clear intervention of a secular entity setting rules for a spiritual.

It would be enormously better to live in a catholic theocracy. many more examples of State intrusion against the Church exist.
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This is absolutely shocking and… can’t think of the word… angry-making!! :mad:

Please let me know any details you have on this! i suppose i could do a search on the net… :mad:

😦 :gopray2: :highprayer:
 
I think focusing on the eternal (as opposed to the temporal) is the mission of the Church. Government, on the other hand, must focus squarely on both. A division of power and authority is best–
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this is true, that the Church should focus on the eternal… but lay Catholics are free to “do what they want” 😉 i believe they should be getting into government and Catholicizing the world - with a vengeance! 🙂

Also, i believe there is too much division between gov and the Church… Jefferson only said that there should be a wall of separation to keep gov out of the Church, not the other way around… but most people don’t realize that was his intention… The liberals use that wall of separation argument to thwart Christianity (particularly Catholocism)…
All things are related when u think about it. I believe ALL law stems from God, whether people realize it or not or give him the credit or not…
Why not have rulers rule in a godly way (… we probably succeed in America more often than not??) and give God the credit…?
🤷
 
Montalban said:
And if a minority deem that they have the religious right to commit murder, should the state intervene?
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A minority DO deem they have the right to murder… Serial killers are a minority…

Abortionists are a minority…

Get real - murder is murder… going 35 in a 25- mph zone is NOT…
 
distracted said:
this is true, that the Church should focus on the eternal… but lay Catholics are free to “do what they want” 😉 i believe they should be getting into government and Catholicizing the world - with a vengeance! 🙂

Also, i believe there is too much division between gov and the Church… Jefferson only said that there should be a wall of separation to keep gov out of the Church, not the other way around… but most people don’t realize that was his intention… The liberals use that wall of separation argument to thwart Christianity (particularly Catholocism)…
All things are related when u think about it. I believe ALL law stems from God, whether people realize it or not or give him the credit or not…
Why not have rulers rule in a godly way (… we probably succeed in America more often than not??) and give God the credit…?
🤷
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I agree with much of what you said–especially about getting Catholics into government–but I just don’t know that I see the benefit in the proposed theocracy. One interesting angle on this concerns the evangelization and growth aspect of the faith. One would think that faith flourishes the most when government actively supports it, but history has not really demonstrated that to be the case. If you look at the early days of the “Christian cult” under the Roman Empire, it’s amazing how the growth exploded despite such unspeakable tortures and persecutions. I just don’t think I could trust a benevolent theocracy; it’d be too much power in the hands of just a few people. Like it, or not, we all have a bent nature or inclination to do wrong, and I think this would likely be a corrupting influence that could do more harm than good.
 
What is the difference between a dictatorship and a monarchy? Is it soley the motive and behavior of the “king”?

I love the USA, but I think we could do so much better. A monarchy where a king had to acceed to the requirements of the Pope, thus forcing a “benevolent” monarchy might solve many of the social problems facing modern Americans.
 
Things have gone too far bad to start a Catholic theocracy now. Maybe it will work in a world where most people are Catholic; but this isn’t the world we live in. We live in a diverse culture with many different ideas swimming around willy-nilly; it is a place where people decide what’s best for society according to what they can get away with while maintaining control, rather then what is logical and right. We live in a time where people are asking questions like “What is normal?" “What is moral”? People in this day-and-age live in complete darkness; the sun has been eclipsed by a circular moon; Allot of people see life, not as something that is of spiritual value, but something that must be used and abused before one dies; getting as much pleasure out of life as possible, comes first before morality. The insanity that has taken a hold on peoples minds and hearts doesn’t care about discipline or responsibility.

A corrupt vision for Catholicism?

If one takes refuge in a catholic community, it is right to ask that particular person to respect the laws of your community while they stay, and if they don’t, then it is right of you to ask them to leave. (While in Rome, do as the Romans do)

But the idea that it would be a greater good or a necessary evil to force a catholic Government with Catholic principle’s on a world that is not Catholic, right or wrong, seems to me, a snare of the devil; we have to ask are selves, “is that force imposed for there benefit, or ours? I may be wrong, but I feel that people should argue their case; prove their side of the story through logical debate, and then when change comes, it cannot be seen as something that is being immorally imposed on society.

For example, if you got into power one day, and forced everybody to be sexually straight under pain of prison, (you know that homosexuality is wrong), but what would be the point of it, and where is the glory of Christ if the whole world rises up against you in hatred of him, convinced that you’re an evil oppressor, and overthrows your empire, and as a result, they put their souls in an even worse state then it was before? How have we helped them spiritually? What is the point if people hate Christ for the sins that we commit? Its better to persuade people through the love of God, rather then pull people kicking and screaming in to heaven!

Jesus never forced anybody to believe in his words. I believe that when he asked us to help build his kingdom on earth, he wasn’t taking about a Government, but a spiritual kingdom that is visible through his children; through his church.

The Catholic world is a completely different world from the circular society we live in today, and it will only be excepted when people freely wish to understand it and accept it in to their hearts. I did not understand why it was wrong to do certain things until I became a believer in God; because as soon as began to believe in Jesus, life became something of value; something that is worth preserving and nurturing. A lot of people who would have an abortion to day, alot of them very young, do not seriously think about life as something of intrinsic value by it self, rather it is something they can choose to put value on; they have grown up in a technological world where money and self is more important then loving one another. It is a world where somebodys life is of more value when that life is populor, because they think that there human value is based on the material goods and the freinds that they have rather then the soul they have been given.

We live in separate realms with different sets of ideas about what is wrong or right; I think that imposing a Catholic theocracy on the world now, would cause a huge amount more harm then Good; I think it would be great sin, and a arrogant assumption to think that the world will be a better place if the government was Catholic. The world will be a better place, only when everybody “Freely” accepts the love of Jesus Christ and his church into their heart.

Peace.
 
I just don’t think I could trust a benevolent theocracy; it’d be too much power in the hands of just a few people.
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You say u couldn’t trust a benevolent theocracy?? Do you trust the “(oftentimes)malevolent bureaucracy” we have now?? OK, i know it isn’t malevolent all the time. But if you had seen some ofthe corruption i’ve seen, you may not be saying waht you say… I’ve seen things that i (for now) don’t wish to even speak of… (long story as to why)…

Power is ALREADY in the hands of just a few people… and most of them are far from being Catholic, whether in actuality or in philosophical leanings…

In the U.S., things aren’t as bad as they could be (or are they?) because of our system of governmetn (its checks and balances, etc.). But even with this system in place, corruption flourishes (especially in certain areas)… & many ungodly things are done in the name of “justice”. OUr human visiion of justice is SO flawed, even as informed, practicing, devout Catholics… It is so much worse without this Catholic influence…
I don’t necessarily beleive in a Catholic theocracy, but a “non-denominational Christian” … no, an INTER-denominational theocracy would be better than what we have now. I mean, the Catholics and many Protesant groups ARE on the same page in a lot of important ways (most Pr are pro-life, etc…).
People without the Church are not naturally godly. Actually, its not even in our nature while INside the Church to be godly… Its our nature to be selfish… self-serving, etc…But how much worse would it be if there was no Christianity at all?
Anyway, people outside of Christ are not (objectively speaking) “godly” without making a serious effort… (and its also human nature to not want to make too serious an effort…)
And if you are not godly, you are selfish… if you are selfish, well, it’s the “might makes right” thing. Whoever has the most might, the most $… rules… which is actually the way it is in this world anyway… already.
The worst “sin”, it seems, in America, is to be poor. Poor people are treated as though they were morally inferior or something (otherwise, why would they be poor, right? If they were blessed by God, they would be well-off… right?) :rolleyes: So our american thought processes go… and yet maybe many poor people are poor because they just don’t happen to value money and material possessions?? Which, to me, is more godly (more St. Francis-like…) than trying to keep up with the Joneses…
Anyway, God bless…
 
There are many good people that believe in what is right who aren’t Catholic, and perhaps often there is not such a difference between Catholic morality and the ethics of the world as might be supposed. For example,there are many people who are not Catholic who do not accept the homosexual movement, and in fact states are enacting laws forbidding gay “marriage.”
It is possible too that some of the things people here think of as oppression are in fact not oppression. I recall the time until thirty years ago or so when sodomy laws were in force. In fact I remember a great scandal carried in the front pages of the press when a man in the Kennedy solicited sex in a Washington D.C. public men’s room and was arested. No one even in the press said that homosexuals were oppressed then.
freesoulhope said:
Things have gone too far bad to start a Catholic theocracy now. Maybe it will work in a world where most people are Catholic; but this isn’t the world we live in. We live in a diverse culture with many different ideas swimming around willy-nilly; it is a place where people decide what’s best for society according to what they can get away with while maintaining control, rather then what is logical and right. We live in a time where people are asking questions like “What is normal?" “What is moral”? People in this day-and-age live in complete darkness; the sun has been eclipsed by a circular moon; Allot of people see life, not as something that is of spiritual value, but something that must be used and abused before one dies; getting as much pleasure out of life as possible, comes first before morality. The insanity that has taken a hold on peoples minds and hearts doesn’t care about discipline or responsibility.

A corrupt vision for Catholicism?

If one takes refuge in a catholic community, it is right to ask that particular person to respect the laws of your community while they stay, and if they don’t, then it is right of you to ask them to leave. (While in Rome, do as the Romans do)

But the idea that it would be a greater good or a necessary evil to force a catholic Government with Catholic principle’s on a world that is not Catholic, right or wrong, seems to me, a snare of the devil; we have to ask are selves, “is that force imposed for there benefit, or ours? I may be wrong, but I feel that people should argue their case; prove their side of the story through logical debate, and then when change comes, it cannot be seen as something that is being immorally imposed on society.

For example, if you got into power one day, and forced everybody to be sexually straight under pain of prison, (you know that homosexuality is wrong), but what would be the point of it, and where is the glory of Christ if the whole world rises up against you in hatred of him, convinced that you’re an evil oppressor, and overthrows your empire, and as a result, they put their souls in an even worse state then it was before? How have we helped them spiritually? What is the point if people hate Christ for the sins that we commit? Its better to persuade people through the love of God, rather then pull people kicking and screaming in to heaven!

Jesus never forced anybody to believe in his words. I believe that when he asked us to help build his kingdom on earth, he wasn’t taking about a Government, but a spiritual kingdom that is visible through his children; through his church.

The Catholic world is a completely different world from the circular society we live in today, and it will only be excepted when people freely wish to understand it and accept it in to their hearts. I did not understand why it was wrong to do certain things until I became a believer in God; because as soon as began to believe in Jesus, life became something of value; something that is worth preserving and nurturing. A lot of people who would have an abortion to day, alot of them very young, do not seriously think about life as something of intrinsic value by it self, rather it is something they can choose to put value on; they have grown up in a technological world where money and self is more important then loving one another. It is a world where somebodys life is of more value when that life is populor, because they think that there human value is based on the material goods and the freinds that they have rather then the soul they have been given.

We live in separate realms with different sets of ideas about what is wrong or right; I think that imposing a Catholic theocracy on the world now, would cause a huge amount more harm then Good; I think it would be great sin, and a arrogant assumption to think that the world will be a better place if the government was Catholic. The world will be a better place, only when everybody “Freely” accepts the love of Jesus Christ and his church into their heart.

Peace.
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Never. Gee, I hope that doesn’t make me less of a Catholic but I prefer democracy.
 
mdgspencer said:
There are many good people that believe in what is right who aren’t Catholic, and perhaps often there is not such a difference between Catholic morality and the ethics of the world as might be supposed. For example,there are many people who are not Catholic who do not accept the homosexual movement, and in fact states are enacting laws forbidding gay “marriage.”
It is possible too that some of the things people here think of as oppression are in fact not oppression. I recall the time until thirty years ago or so when sodomy laws were in force. In fact I remember a great scandal carried in the front pages of the press when a man in the Kennedy solicited sex in a Washington D.C. public men’s room and was arested. No one even in the press said that homosexuals were oppressed then.
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We are not living in those times now; and its quite possible that strict laws such as those incurred in those days, may have incorraged homosexual rebellion to the extent we see today.

I’m not saying that it is wrong to pass laws that forbid a public display of homosexuality; neither am I saying that gay people are oppressed. I’m saying, that we live in a time where it would be foolish to pass such laws; we are to far Gone past the point of no return. Homosexuality is accepted as normal; the younger generation are growing up in a time where Gay people are seen as oppressed people; so if one was to pass a law that banned it, it would do far more damage then Good; its not only gay people who think its okay to be Gay.

If people think you’re an oppressor, it doesn’t matter whether that is true or not; you will be at the mercy of what people think; the gay movement have successfully got it in to peoples minds that, People who oppose Homosexuality are no better then fascists, Nazis, and racists. In a situation were the majority of people are not on your side, its better to persuade change, rather then march in with commands that seem to the brainwashed, Unreasonable and oppressive. Are people to blame for thinking that Gay people are oppressed?

The corruption runs deep, and if you forcibly try to dig it out, in the end, society will just fall to bits; and you find that you have done more harm then good.

I do not deny, that there are times when change must be forced; but we are not a regime or government; we are an earthly light for Gods kingdom; a haven for lost souls. It not about us, we have already come to know God; it’s about the lost souls out there that are in danger of going to hell because they have been deceived or have deceived them selves. I don’t think that the church should compromise the faith for the desires of society, but I do think that, where it can be helped, it is very important how we are perceived by the public, and it is are job to help people to understand the error of there ways rather then force them to change; because in forcing good on ignorance, it may push them further away from Gods kingdom.

It’s better to preach the truth with reason and love, rather then to force it on people. In respects of things like adoption, it is right for us to stand up, because they are coming to “our” back garden and “demanding” that “we” change; that’s when we have a right to call for tough laws; because it is are right to be Catholic and believe what we believe.
 
mesquite_magic said:
Hmmm, then what happens to those who light a Menorah, or a Yule Log, or celebrate Ramadan (yes, I know that’s in Sept)? There’s a reason for seperation of Church and State. A very important one. People should be able to worship as they please weather it be Catholic, Protastant, Jewish, Muslim, Budidst, Pagan, Whatever. YKWIM? That’s why I love being American

Kim
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Read Dignitatis Humanae (Vatican II Docs)Declaration on Religious Freedom. It won’t take long, it is one of the shorter ones.
All religions would have a better guarantee under a Catholic government than under say, for example, a Christopher Hitchens or a Richard Dawkins government.
 
freesoulhope said:
Things have gone too far bad to start a Catholic theocracy now. Maybe it will work in a world where most people are Catholic; but this isn’t the world we live in. We live in a diverse culture with many different ideas swimming around willy-nilly; it is a place where people decide what’s best for society according to what they can get away with while maintaining control, rather then what is logical and right. We live in a time where people are asking questions like “What is normal?" “What is moral”? People in this day-and-age live in complete darkness; the sun has been eclipsed by a circular moon; Allot of people see life, not as something that is of spiritual value, but something that must be used and abused before one dies; getting as much pleasure out of life as possible, comes first before morality. The insanity that has taken a hold on peoples minds and hearts doesn’t care about discipline or responsibility.

A corrupt vision for Catholicism?

If one takes refuge in a catholic community, it is right to ask that particular person to respect the laws of your community while they stay, and if they don’t, then it is right of you to ask them to leave. (While in Rome, do as the Romans do)

But the idea that it would be a greater good or a necessary evil to force a catholic Government with Catholic principle’s on a world that is not Catholic, right or wrong, seems to me, a snare of the devil; we have to ask are selves, “is that force imposed for there benefit, or ours? I may be wrong, but I feel that people should argue their case; prove their side of the story through logical debate, and then when change comes, it cannot be seen as something that is being immorally imposed on society.

For example, if you got into power one day, and forced everybody to be sexually straight under pain of prison, (you know that homosexuality is wrong), but what would be the point of it, and where is the glory of Christ if the whole world rises up against you in hatred of him, convinced that you’re an evil oppressor, and overthrows your empire, and as a result, they put their souls in an even worse state then it was before? How have we helped them spiritually? What is the point if people hate Christ for the sins that we commit? Its better to persuade people through the love of God, rather then pull people kicking and screaming in to heaven!

Jesus never forced anybody to believe in his words. I believe that when he asked us to help build his kingdom on earth, he wasn’t taking about a Government, but a spiritual kingdom that is visible through his children; through his church.

The Catholic world is a completely different world from the circular society we live in today, and it will only be excepted when people freely wish to understand it and accept it in to their hearts. I did not understand why it was wrong to do certain things until I became a believer in God; because as soon as began to believe in Jesus, life became something of value; something that is worth preserving and nurturing. A lot of people who would have an abortion to day, alot of them very young, do not seriously think about life as something of intrinsic value by it self, rather it is something they can choose to put value on; they have grown up in a technological world where money and self is more important then loving one another. It is a world where somebodys life is of more value when that life is populor, because they think that there human value is based on the material goods and the freinds that they have rather then the soul they have been given.

We live in separate realms with different sets of ideas about what is wrong or right; I think that imposing a Catholic theocracy on the world now, would cause a huge amount more harm then Good; I think it would be great sin, and a arrogant assumption to think that the world will be a better place if the government was Catholic. The world will be a better place, only when everybody “Freely” accepts the love of Jesus Christ and his church into their heart.

Peace.
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The question was, would you prefer to live in a Catholic theocracy. That says nothing about how to get there. In my opinion our western culture is in self-destruct mode. It is only a matter of time. All we have to do is be there and be ready. It may be many years from now and things will get worse before the end.
What’s that saying? “Things are always the darkest just before they go completely black.”
 
Having studied Church history enough to see how things went when the Church was “in charge”, I wouldn’t want a Church-run government for anything, primarily because when it did exist it corrupted the Church so badly that it is amazing we ever recovered from it.

And quite frankly, seeing the way Catholics treat Catholics even within this forum, I would have grave misgivings about how “Catholic” would be construed and how we would treat each other, much less anyone else.

Far better for the Church to truly take on its purpose of bringing people to God–and teaching them how to listen for the still small voice–rather than getting into social control and teaching people how to adapt to the “noise” of the world. Then people would have a solid basis for seeking out and electing people who would put God first without tempting the Church with temporal power and having them become just another “principality”.
 
If I had a choice of the way the world looks now and a Catholic Theocracy I would take the Theocracy in a heart beat. Listening to the garbage that is going on in our congress and the the PC laws being forced down our collective throats is turning me even more Conservative in social and moral situations. And I have been conservative for a long long time.
 
uther said:
The question was, would you prefer to live in a Catholic theocracy
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Yes, if your talking about what is better for society in theory: No if your talking about imposing on todays society, with out reason, what we think is better for society. And my objections are stated in posts.

It would be nice if everybody excepted that the Catholic way is the best way; and we might even see a Catholic theocracy in the future if the revelation of Jhon is anything to go by; and it may be ruled with an iron rod for two thosand years; though i don’t think it will be like the Catholic theocracy of the past.

I think that a Catholic theocracy will work if it isn’t based upon the economic system of present day capitilism.

I think in certain times when there is complete disorder and decadence; a Cathoic theocracy might have to be imposed; but for the moment, we live in a somewhat ordered society where we can still at least appeal to somekind of reason; even though i to see society leading to self destruction.

Peace
 
I still believe that this subject requires more critical thinking than most are willing to give it. The alternatives of decadent democracy and virtuous Catholic theocracy simply aren’t realistic, nor are they helpful in our contemporary context, when we’re honestly looking for ways to make the world a better place.

To know what would make our modern world better requires us to look critically at the past.

So what does the past of the Western world tell us?

That unifying political and religious power is dangerous.

The other day, I heard Alasdair MacIntyre speak, a pre-eminent philosopher of the 20th century–and Catholic convert–who just happens to teach at my university. What most people on this thread have a problem with is the secularized society which we’ve inherited from the Enlightenment–but what were the causes of that movement, which eventually led to us effectively killing God and exiling him from our public life?

He claims that it was (at least in part) due to the unification of Church and State in Western Europe, which led inevitably to the corruption of both. It *really *needed to be addressed. I mean think about it…what else incited Luther’s Reformation, the French Revolution, etc., but the ill-conceived politicization of our beautiful Catholic faith?

People were willing to kill God because they didn’t understand Him. And why didn’t they understand Him? Because they weren’t taught, by virtuous Catholics, what faith in God, the dignity of the person, the need for Christian community all mean. They were disenchanted by the corruption which they saw and experienced. Schism is always wrong, but in some sense–can you blame them?

The thing is, that this danger that comes when we stick the Church and the State together (rather than close cooperation, or at least understanding, which I favor) at any time in history. Doing it now won’t lead to any different result than it has in the past.

Yes, our society needs principles–but principles won’t just appear in citizens if their Constitution tells them to believe in them. There needs to be an authentic growth in faith and virtue, the re-education of modern man, for a fruitful political community–of whatever kind–to be possible.
 
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