Would you sin to fulfil the last request of a stranger?

[jfallaw]

IDK if this is the proper place for this, but another thread on the Baptism of believers by non-believers brought up this question:

Originally Posted by KarenNC
I guess the question then becomes, would a Catholic be willing to do the same thing for a non-Christian—the equivalent of baptize another person into a religion s/he does not believe in and in fact may consider anathema?

I thought it was a good question and wish to discuss it further with y’all. So the question is, if a non-Christian were dying and requested that you perform or participate in some kind of non-Christian religious rite that he/she believes will assure his/her salvation, would you do it? Would it be Charitable to do so, even though it is a sin to participate in other religious practices? If not, then how can the Church accept as valid a Baptism performed by a non-Christian and yet demand that we take no part in other religions’ ceremonies?

 

[jfallaw]

sorry, here is the link to the original thread

 

[Eileen_T]

IDK if this is the proper place for this, but another thread on the Baptism of believers by non-believers brought up this question:

Originally Posted by KarenNC
I guess the question then becomes, would a Catholic be willing to do the same thing for a non-Christian—the equivalent of baptize another person into a religion s/he does not believe in and in fact may consider anathema?

I thought it was a good question and wish to discuss it further with y’all. So the question is, if a non-Christian were dying and requested that you perform or participate in some kind of non-Christian religious rite that he/she believes will assure his/her salvation, would you do it? Would it be Charitable to do so, even though it is a sin to participate in other religious practices? If not, then how can the Church accept as valid a Baptism performed by a non-Christian and yet demand that we take no part in other religions’ ceremonies?

How could I participate in an action that I believe is false? No, I would not perform some kind of non-Christian religious rite that I believed would be useless.

OTOH, I believe that a Trinitarian Baptism performed by any person, Christian or not, is valid. If they agreed to perform it, it would be a response to a request not a demand. If they refused I would still have the baptism of desire.

 

[honorspianist]

If they refused I would still have the baptism of desire.

There is no such thing as “baptism of desire.” While anyone at all can baptise (regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof), a person cannot baptise by intent alone. Baptism requires immersion, sprinkling, or pouring of water on the person to be baptised, according to the Church.

 

[Eileen_T]

There is no such thing as “baptism of desire.” While anyone at all can baptise (regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof), a person cannot baptise by intent alone. Baptism requires immersion, sprinkling, or pouring of water on the person to be baptised, according to the Church.

I don’t know what your faith community teaches but we are talking about the Catholic Church here, which does indeed accept such a thing as a “baptism of desire.”

CCC 1259 states: “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.”

 

[Eileen_T]

QUOTE=honorspianist;3122463]There is no such thing as “baptism of desire.” While anyone at all can baptise (regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof), a person cannot baptise by intent alone. Baptism requires immersion, sprinkling, or pouring of water on the person to be baptised, according to the Church.I don’t know what your faith community teaches but we are talking about the Catholic Church here, which does indeed accept such a thing as a “baptism of desire.”

CCC 1259 states: “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.”

 

[jfallaw]

How could I participate in an action that I believe is false? No, I would not perform some kind of non-Christian religious rite that I believed would be useless.

OTOH, I believe that a Trinitarian Baptism performed by any person, Christian or not, is valid. If they agreed to perform it, it would be a response to a request not a demand. If they refused I would still have the baptism of desire.

But it’s ok to be baptised by someone who believes it to be false?
See that’s the thing; if I’m dying in the street and a non-Christian baptises me, the Church considers it valid. But the person baptising doesn’t believe in it. That person is doing what I ask out of pure pity, or charity, or just plain give-a-****. That person is doing the nicest thing a non-believer can do for me at that point.
Would it not also be right for me to do the same for them, even if I don’t believe in what I’m doing? I know it is a sin to participate in any form of non-Catholic worship, but would doing an act for another human being in their last hour not make up for that sin? It seems really selfish to accept their kind deed if necessary but refuse to do the same for them.

 

[KarenNC]

How could I participate in an action that I believe is false? No, I would not perform some kind of non-Christian religious rite that I believed would be useless.

On what basis would you deny a compassionate response and comfort to a dying person (since that is the way that this question is being framed), if you do not believe it will affect them one way or the other?

OTOH, I believe that a Trinitarian Baptism performed by any person, Christian or not, is valid. If they agreed to perform it, it would be a response to a request not a demand.

Not sure where the “demand” comes in.

Why would it be valid, if the person doing it considered it useless at best?

 

[honorspianist]

I don’t know what your faith community teaches but we are talking about the Catholic Church here, which does indeed accept such a thing as a “baptism of desire.”

CCC 1259 states: “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.”

this passage from the ccc refers specifically to catechumens.

 

[latinmasslover]

this passage from the ccc refers specifically to catechumens.

You’re emphasizing that one cannot leave it at a baptism of desire, that one has to be willing to (and in the process of) getting baptized properly ASAP, yes?

 

[Eileen_T]

jfallaw:

But it’s ok to be baptised by someone who believes it to be false?
See that’s the thing; if I’m dying in the street and a non-Christian baptises me, the Church considers it valid. But the person baptising doesn’t believe in it. That person is doing what I ask out of pure pity, or charity, or just plain give-a-****. That person is doing the nicest thing a non-believer can do for me at that point.
Would it not also be right for me to do the same for them, even if I don’t believe in what I’m doing? I know it is a sin to participate in any form of non-Catholic worship, but would doing an act for another human being in their last hour not make up for that sin?** It seems really selfish to accept their kind deed if necessary but refuse to do the same for them.**

We are not talking about a kind deed, this is the last thing that could be done for a person before they die and face Judgment, then Heaven or Hell for eternity. It wouldn’t be kind of me to ignore that fact, would it? If someone wanted to drink something I knew was deadly poison but they didn’t, and they asked me to hand it to them, would it be a kind deed to give it to them in their ignorance? No.

KarenNC:

On what basis would you deny a compassionate response and comfort to a dying person (since that is the way that this question is being framed), if you do not believe it will affect them one way or the other?

As above, I do believe it will affect them one way or the other. For eternity.

honorspianist:

this passage from the ccc refers specifically to catechumens.

Who else would want to be baptised?

 

[honorspianist]

Who else would want to be baptised?

Well, a person who was not a catechumen but still wanted to be baptised for one.

In any case, I believe I originially pointed out that a person cannot baptise by intent alone–that there must be sprinkling, pouring, or immersion in water. You brought up a passage from the ccc which referred solely to catechumens.

 

[Kaninchen]

Hm

On the original thread, I said that, despite the profound distaste I’d feel in saying the words, I’d do it because it was a humanitarian thing to do (putting the poor, dying woman’s mind at ease).

Of course, Jews don’t feel that people are doomed in any way for being Christian and so the action would be harmless, other than the child getting wet.

What would horrify me, if a child of mine’s life were in danger, would be if a Christian took it into their head to baptize her. While, on the one hand, it would just be a case of the child getting wet, on the other it would seem terribly insulting assault (to say the least).

 

[blessedtoo]

Well, a person who was not a catechumen but still wanted to be baptised for one.

In any case, I believe I originially pointed out that a person cannot baptise by intent alone–that there must be sprinkling, pouring, or immersion in water. You brought up a passage from the ccc which referred solely to catechumens.

****1260 ****Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[honorspianist]

1260 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

This is merely a statement proving that God can grant salvation outside the bounds of baptism. It does not give anyone authority to baptise by intention alone.

 

[porkscratchings]

What would horrify me, if a child of mine’s life were in danger, would be if a Christian took it into their head to baptize her. While, on the one hand, it would just be a case of the child getting wet, on the other it would seem terribly insulting assault (to say the least).

I agree. I would be very offended if someone baptised me as I lay dying. It means they are not respecting that I have made a choice NOT to be a Christian. It would hurt even more if the person who did it happens to be a friend - someone who would know what I believe in and chose to ignore my wishes as I lay dying. If I got baptised as I lay dying and it turns out the medics were wrong and I lived - well, that person who disrespected my beliefs would be out of my life.

I also wouldn’t baptise someone on their deathbed as I think that this ritual should only be performed by someone of the same religion. As an atheist, I would not be able to do the ritual properly and give it proper respect. I’d ask a priest to do it.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Well, a person who was not a catechumen but still wanted to be baptised for one.

In any case, I believe I originially pointed out that a person cannot baptise by intent alone–that there must be sprinkling, pouring, or immersion in water. You brought up a passage from the ccc which referred solely to catechumens.

Small problem with your logic - technically anyone who attempts to approach the Church seeking the sacraments would be considered a catechumen; that refers to a desire to seek instruction.

 

[jfallaw]

You’re emphasizing that one cannot leave it at a baptism of desire, that one has to be willing to (and in the process of) getting baptized properly ASAP, yes?

Well, I honestly see no need for a nonbeleiver to baptise me if A baptism of desire is so easily obtained?

 

[jfallaw]

We are not talking about a kind deed, this is the last thing that could be done for a person before they die and face Judgment, then Heaven or Hell for eternity. It wouldn’t be kind of me to ignore that fact, would it? If someone wanted to drink something I knew was deadly poison but they didn’t, and they asked me to hand it to them, would it be a kind deed to give it to them in their ignorance? No.
As above, I do believe it will affect them one way or the other. For eternity.Who else would want to be baptised?

so you would spend those last few minutes trying to convert them?

 

[CuriousInIL]

Would it be Charitable to do so, **even though it is a sin to participate in other religious practices? **

What is the basis for this?