Would you still be Christian if . .

[CatholicCrusade]

I voted no because, if it were true that you need not be Catholic to be saved from the fires of Hell, that would mean the Church erred, which would mean that Christ lied, which would mean He was not God, and that would mean that God could not exist, since He has vouched by so many Saints, prophecies, et al. that Christ is His Son and God. So, if you need not be Catholic to be saved from the fires of Hell, then NO, I would not be Christian, since that would mean THERE IS NO HELL and there is no God.

If anything the Church teaches is erred, then there is no God.

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Moreover, to say it is not necessary to be Catholic to be saved is the greatest insult to the countless martyrs for the Faith, especially those who were slain by protestants and other incorrectly called “christians”.

 

[mayra_hart]

i vote yes . to be a christian is to believe in god, and that mean following his comandments and doing a good job down here as human being. but what about indians and others that didn’t know christianity are they saved too. bless you all

 

[sweetchuck]

Be careful with hypothetical questions. Consider first what they would imply.

Only in a world in which everyone chooses to love God and neighbor is a world in which everyone will be saved.

On this present world, if everyone were saved, that would make everyone eternal slaves.

Only people who want to go to heaven are going to go there. If there weren’t, it would negate free will, the divine plan, and the purpose of the earth. It would make Christ a liar, the Virgin Mary a liar, and all the saints liars. It would justify evil, endorse hedonism, and condone murder. Most importantly, it would make God unjust. It would make God cruel.

Granted, His mercy endures forever, and everyone who only asks will receive His mercy. But He isn’t going to force anyone into eternal worship. Thus the gift of free will.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

Philthy:

Hi!

Sorry, but I missed your point. What exactly was it? In your own words please…

Phil

Exactly, good point, a lot of words without actually saying anything, definately a sigh of genius

 

[CatholicCrusade]

mayra hart:

i vote yes . to be a christian is to believe in god, and that mean following his comandments and doing a good job down here as human being. but what about indians and others that didn’t know christianity are they saved too. bless you all

It is heresy to say a non-Catholic, especially a pagan of all things, can be saved. St. Paul in Romans condemned the pagans for acting against natural law and proved beyond any doubt that there is no salvation for pagans.

Moreover, the Church has defined further that there is no salvation for Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics, or excommunicated persons. Such will be heirs not with Christ but in heirs to the eternal fires of hell with the devil and his angels, as defined by the holy Council of Florence infallibly.

 

[sweetchuck]

CatholicCrusade:

Moreover, the Church has defined further that there is no salvation for Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics, or excommunicated persons. Such will be heirs not with Christ but in heirs to the eternal fires of hell with the devil and his angels, as defined by the holy Council of Florence infallibly.

That is utter nonsense. Spreading such lies is what perpetuates hatred between Protestants and Catholics

Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that no one can know God’s judgment.

The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 and when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

contd

 

[sweetchuck]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. the Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. the Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

1260 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

regarding excommunication…

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them.68 In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.

Know church teachings before you presume the Heavenly Father’s judgments on mankind. I, a Catholic, am profoundly grateful that our God is infinitely more merciful than you want him to be.

 

[CatholicCrusade]

I know Catholic teaching, and what you just quoted it not it. That is, at least, if you are implying that those paragraphs are saying there is salvation outside the Church.

The Church has taught most clearly that there is no salvation outside of Her Fold:

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. -Pope Innocent III, Lateran Council IV

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino

These declarations are infallible, according to the Church. It says so very clearly: NONE outside the Church, ABSOLUTELY “NO ONE AT ALL” [Lateran IV]. The Church could use no stronger words to declare this. Never does it say an exception. Never. It does not once say: “except if they don’t know better” or "except if they are Jewish or protestant [heretics, on the contrary, it says, cannot be saved] or mohammadean. Never. No infallible Church document has ever said that. They say quite the opposite. I would suggest your own words to you: “Know church [sic] teachings before you presume the Heavenly Father’s judgments on mankind” (that is, you cannot presume mercy when the Church says there is no hope).

 

[sweetchuck]

You should check out footnote 337 in the text I quoted. It’s from the infalliable Lumum Gentum (sp?) council. Seems to be contrary to the spin you put on those other councils. Like I say, I’m glad God is more merciful than you. Are you another one of those Vatican II haters?

 

[mayra_hart]

to catholic crusade: i understand what you said. but before cristianity indians and others didn’t know about a bible or god. so you still think that they won’t be save. i hope god have mercy on them an i pray that in there is a space in heaven for them too. :yup:

 

[Idisto]

CatholicCrusade,

Care to explain how it is just to condemn someone to hell for being born in a place or time without ever hearing of Christ?

David

In response to the OP, I voted “no”. I am not a Catholic anymore, and I would have been too afraid to vote “yes” if I were.

 

[manualman]

CC, such a God you describe! Sounds more like the Pharisees than Jesus.

The trouble with quotes like those you have provided is the same as some of those thrown out by Fundamentalists: out of context.

The people to whom they were written were very different than those that today’s CCC is written to. The situations of history were also very different. Therefore it is quite reasonable for the layman to trust the current CCC on such issues over quotes whose meaning may encumbered with obscure context. That, at any rate is MY policy.

It reminds me of an old joke, which I will no doubt butcher here:
Fundamentalist dies and stands at the gate of heaven. St. Peter says to him “Everybody in heaven is catholic.” F, aghast, says “What? how can all catholics be in heaven?” SP replies “Oh, no. I didn’t say that. You see, everybody in hell is catholic too.”

God has created the catholic church to pour out His love and grace upon the world. No grace flows from anywhere else. Not the Torah, not the Bible alone, not Muhammed. As catholics, we understand the ordinary means of receiving such grace is the sacraments and have been warned not to neglect them or presume adequate grace by some other undefined means. But those messages are for US, not those outside the church. God alone knows how to dispense perfect justice for them. This does not release us from an urgency of evangelization. On the contrary, if God wills ME to be the witness that makes the difference in an unbelievers life and I wimp out (or turn him off with self-righteous speeches), WOE TO ME on judgement day, when ALL truth is revealed to all men.

 

[TODD1]

I voted no. If everybody is saved then why do anything that goes towards our salvation? I could spend more time doing things I want to do, etc. That person (a practicing Christian) would be evern more of a laughing stock if everyone were saved.

 

[serendipity]

I’m not sure I understand the question. Is the point , why behave decently and live a life pleasing to God, even if there was not fear of hell?

 

[amarischuk]

TODD1:

I voted no. If everybody is saved then why do anything that goes towards our salvation? I could spend more time doing things I want to do, etc. That person (a practicing Christian) would be evern more of a laughing stock if everyone were saved.

If you only do good for the reward, I would say that you already are not a Christian.

Adam

 

[Genesis315]

aridite:

Would you still be Christian (live as you do, follow Jesus, avoid sin) if you found out that you did not need to be Christian (Catholic or Protestant) to “be saved” from the fires of hell?

I used to be kind of jealous of those who got to do whatever they wanted and then made a deathbed conversion. Then my Faith matured. I would never want to live any part of my life separated from God. I feel sorry for those that only find Him at the end. They miss out on the true happiness that is available during our physical lives.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

I am a (Roman) Catholic by birth and as an adult by choice. I like being a Roman Catholic regardless of any situation.

 

[TODD1]

amarischuk:

If you only do good for the reward, I would say that you already are not a Christian.

Adam

well yes I do what is right for the reward and shun what’s wrong for the penalty. If none of it really matters, then why do any of it: going to mass, praying, studying, witnessing, etc.

By the way, I’m already a Christian.

 

[TODD1]

If everyone was going to be saved, then I’d actually still be a Christian. I’d make sure I’d go to Mass twice a year, pray whenever I felt the urge, maybe read the bible once or so when I got interested. I’d make sure to baptize my kids if I could afford to take the time out of my schedule. I might get married in the church too, that is, if my future wife was catholic as well; but if she wasn’t that wouldn’t be a big deal either. If I ever got a little serious about that ridiculous orginazation they called the church, I would definately voice my two cents and let everyone know how i felt about the pope and how out of touch with reality he is…oops I’m sorry I was thinking about those so called Catholics who think they are going to heaven if they continue in that sort of a manner.