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Shin
Guest
I’ve been to a wide number of OF parishes, and I’ve seen it in all of them. In both the U.S. and outside of it.
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wanner47
Guest
Recently?
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PJM
Guest
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Shin
Guest
Recently? Yes. I moved recently and am exploring all the nearby parishes.
Since I moved to NJ, you can’t throw a rock without hitting ten churches.
Inappropriate clothing is the rule in general in these times at novus ordo parishes.
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Adeodatus
Guest
I’ve been Catholic for 13 years, and I think that, with one exception, I’ve never not seen it. It is a fixture at virtually every OF mass I’ve ever attended, with the exception of one chapel I used to attend for daily Mass (which didn’t have servers).
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wanner47
Guest
So the priest wears a suit or something? Or the altar servers don’t wear robes?
This is baffling to me. Like I said, I’ve been to many OF masses, in many different states, and I’ve never seen anyone who is serving at Mass who was not wearing a robe (or, in the case of the priest, clerical vestments). Isn’t it required by the rubrics of the Church for those serving at Mass to wear some sort of robe or vestment (with the exception of EMHCs)?
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francesca_gen
Guest
Until my current parish, I never saw altar servers in anything but “civilian clothing.” Coming from a very high-church Episcopalian background, I was shocked that only the priest – not the altar servers, not the choir, not the EMHCs – was vested. In my Episcopal parish, all of them would be. I am really glad now to be someplace where everyone on the altar, and usually the choir (who are in a choir loft! hurrah!) are vested.
ETA: This parish does not use EMHCs and only offers the Host. At the English OFs, one can kneel or stand for communion; at the Latin OF, everyone kneels. There is an altar rail. We also have an EF served by an Institute of Christ the King priest. I generally attend the English Vigil Mass or the Sunday OF Latin.
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Adeodatus
Guest
I’m talking about EMsHC. There always seems to be a platoon of them storming the sanctuary in their civies.
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PaulinVA
Guest
I share the traditionalist unhappiness with the present state of the Church, but I do not think that it is a TLM - Novus Ordu split. At the present, the TLM and people that attend it exclusively come across more like reenacters than than anything else. (This is not meant as an insult but as an observation). They are taking their small parish/chapel back to 1960. It works in the small setting, but would not scale to the whole Church.
We can’t take the rest of the Church back to 1960. We need a new reverence from everyone. From the recent polls and other evidence, most Catholics in America do not believe in the Real Presence, they use artificial birth control, and basically don’t adhere to much of what the Church teachers.
Given that, is anyone surprised that people come late, leave early, wear shorts and sandals? That is the problem! People do not believe!
You can tsk tsk about all these people going to Mass that don’t act the way you want, but they are acting the way they believe. Pray for them.
We can’t take the rest of the Church back to 1960. We need a new reverence from everyone. From the recent polls and other evidence, most Catholics in America do not believe in the Real Presence, they use artificial birth control, and basically don’t adhere to much of what the Church teachers.
Given that, is anyone surprised that people come late, leave early, wear shorts and sandals? That is the problem! People do not believe!
You can tsk tsk about all these people going to Mass that don’t act the way you want, but they are acting the way they believe. Pray for them.
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wanner47
Guest
EMHC’s aren’t required to wear vestments; therefore, it’s not an abuse, but a preference.
It doesn’t make a difference to me either way, although EMHC’s should be wearing modest, appropriate dress when acting in that capacity.
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choy
Guest
i’ve always seen EMHCs wear formal or business attire. but i guess for the ladies it becomes harder to say what’s more formal (or semi-formal) than casual. for men, its just a suit and tie, and you’re good to go
in the Philippines EMHCs wear a green stole. i think this may be an implementation of the local bishop’s conference. perhaps its a good think if its implemented everywhere, to signify the ministry of these lay people
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Julianna
Guest
I would not allow my daughter to wear shorts or my son for that matter to Mass. Tank tops, flip flops…come on, common sense prevails here…really. My jeans and shirt are clean…at 52, I would look funny wearing bleached out jeans with big rips in them…and my thighs would be a sight in shorts…
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floresco
Guest
I agree with modest and appropriate part, but I prefer that they not have any vestments. In my experience, vestments lead to blurring the distinctions between laity and clergy. Also, it seems to me that the “extraordinary” aspect of this ministry is clearer if there are no vestments. In theory, these are people help the priest to distribute Communion under exceptional circumstances. Vestments make it seem to be planned in advance.
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Julianna
Guest
It would have to be very extreme for this moderate to notice.
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PJM
Guest
I agree I don’t understand this one myself
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Interesting post. No, I would not want what you call a “novelty free” Mass. Here’s what I WOULD want gone (of the list you posted):
. Not sure what you mean by cowardly ushers, but they sound bad and I want them gone.
. Overbearing greeters can get a bit annoying, though they are well intentioned. Still, I think Mass would be better without them.
. Bad vestments. Shell the bucks for the nice vestments, please.
. Hand holding. No point.
. Hand shaking. Awkward and kind of pointless.
. Leaving Pews during Sign of Peace. Pointless.
. Chatter in Church at any time. It’s rude.
. Consumption of food or drink in Church. Rude.
. What’s EMHC?
. Priests sitting around during Mass. Priests are leading their flock, they should be active and even joyous about leading others in worship of the Lord.
Everything else, I want to keep. I’m not sure what you mean by inappropriate music. Unless you count “Amazing Grace” as inappropriate (I don’t, personally) I’ve never heard inappropriate music at Mass. I’m also not in favor of kicking out those who come late. It’s more disrespectful not to come at all then to come to Mass late. I think that would turn too many people away.
I have no issues with anything else.
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Julianna
Guest
PJM
the words in bold blue are mine
not micks
the words in bold blue are mine
not micks
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ProVobis
Guest
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JMJ_coder
Guest
EMHC – They are approved by the Church, though I agree they tend to be used more than is probably needed.
Communion in the Hand – This is currently approved by the Church (at least in the USA), but this could change tomorrow if the Holy See decided to expire the indult. If you don’t want to receive in the hand, you have the right to receive on the tongue.
Civilian clothing in the sanctuary – Huh? I know of no Church document regulating the vestments or lack thereof for the non-clergy (though albs are allowed to be worn by non-ordained laity, such as altar servers and lectors).
Altar girls – While I certainly disagree with the interpretation of canon law that has allowed this, nonetheless the Holy See, who has the authority to make this call, has given approval for this.
Inappropriate music – This is a topic in and of itself. Even before Vatican II there were issues with music. For example, there was a call by (I think) Pope Saint Pius X to refrain from using contemporary operatic music for Liturgy. Gregorian chant was far from universal, or else Pope Saint Pius X wouldn’t have had to call for its renewal and the monks at Solemes wouldn’t have had to reconstruct many elements of it. So, my point being, this is not by any means a new problem.
Bad vestments – This is a tough nut to crack. While it may be easy to spot a really ugly vestment, the line between acceptable and non-acceptable is undefined. It is, ultimately, left up to the Bishop to decide. I myself like the gothic vestments more than the fiddlebacks.
Cowardly usher – What constitutes a “cowardly” usher? Ushers aren’t, as far as I know, a liturgical role. There is no essential need for them. One could ask the question how they became so common in the first place.
Overbearing greeters – Again, what makes a greeter “overbearing”? And again, this is not a liturgical function and no need of them being there. And I have rarely seen greeters regularly employed in my area. In my own parish we only have greeters on special occasions (like First Holy Communion).
Hand holding – I presume you mean during the Pater Noster. This is a much discussed topic on these forums (and is it currently under a moratorium?). Unfortunately there has been (as far as I know) no clarification on this issue which I don’t necessarily think exists outside of North America.
Hand shaking – We are to show to our neighbor a sign of peace, and in the USA that is by custom the shaking of the hand. In other cultures this may be different. For example, in my Italian ethnic parish, we by cultural custom offer an embrace.
Hands in the air – I have never witnessed the congregation “reach for the sky”, not in my diocese nor in any of the other dioceses I’ve visited in the USA or Canada, nor on any of the televised Masses I’ve seen on EWTN.
Leaving pews during sign of peace – While I guess there is a potential for abuse, I’ve not witnessed too much traveling during the Sign of Peace, maybe at most a pew or two. I guess it is up to the Priest to determine how much is too much. My own parish Priest has asked us to limit it to our nearest neighbors.
Priests sitting around during Mass – What do you mean by this?
Late arrivals disrupting Mass – Are you so preoccupied by what others are doing that someone slipping in the back disturbs you? Do people who arrive late do jumping jacks on the Altar before being seated in your parish?
Chatter in church at any time – While this should be addressed, it is not a new problem. I recall hearing about an oratory back around the time of Trent (I think) that asked of its members, among other things, not to walk up and down the aisles talking during Mass.
Consumption of food or drink in church – Adults should be able to do without food at Mass. If you can’t go 1 hour without food (which is the prescribed law of fasting for reception of the Eucharist), perhaps you need medical attention. I don’t agree with parents who bring food (usually cheerios, it seems) for their kids to keep them occupied, but I can at least understand their reasoning. As for drink, sometimes it’s needed. I myself always have a bottle of water with me at Mass. Why? Because I tend to get anxiety attacks which include severe dry mouth. I keep things as discreet as possible, but sometimes you got to do what you got to do.
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