Would you support a "novelty-free" OF Mass?

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So the priest wears a suit or something? Or the altar servers don’t wear robes?

This is baffling to me. Like I said, I’ve been to many OF masses, in many different states, and I’ve never seen anyone who is serving at Mass who was not wearing a robe (or, in the case of the priest, clerical vestments). Isn’t it required by the rubrics of the Church for those serving at Mass to wear some sort of robe or vestment (with the exception of EMHCs)?
Hmm, perhaps I misunderstood – well if you’re talking -only- about altar boys (or what -should- only be altar boys), of course not all parishes use them, but where they were, but generally there are problems, I am not always looking to note things it’s depressing.

Altar girls are the majority, which should not be, the altar boys often wear sneakers, or inappropriate clothing that shows under the vestments.
 
Here’s perhaps why it might be inappropriate:

youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/a/u/0/KL1TLJ1ftP0
Interesting video; he makes some good points. I still disagree. My Church certainly doesn’t sing “Amazing Grace” in the name of accomodation; they sing it because it’s a very nice song. And it is. A simple different interpretation of the verses in question would make it acceptable for Catholics. Or perhaps a Catholic could alter the verses a bit to make it acceptable. At any rate, I have no issue with it.
 
So the priest wears a suit or something? Or the altar servers don’t wear robes?

This is baffling to me. Like I said, I’ve been to many OF masses, in many different states, and I’ve never seen anyone who is serving at Mass who was not wearing a robe (or, in the case of the priest, clerical vestments). Isn’t it required by the rubrics of the Church for those serving at Mass to wear some sort of robe or vestment (with the exception of EMHCs)?
STEP 1
Please read post #1 and note this item:
  • Civilian clothing in the sanctuary.
STEP 2
Please read post #38 and note these items:
  • Civilian clothing = tuxedo, business suit, pantsuit, wetsuit, cute dress, etc.
  • Religious clothing = cassock, surplice, alb, chasuble, dalmatic, etc.
  • Sanctuary = the area around the altar.
  • In our TLM community, no person approaches the Altar of God unless they are properly attired for their specific role in the sanctuary. Only the priest may authorize access to the sanctuary and it can be revoked at any time.
  • Altar servers and schola members suit up in white surplice, black cassock, trousers, socks and shoes. The schola leader / lector is a religious brother and seminarian. He wears the habit of his order. Priests wear the proper vestment for the liturgical season or feast that is being celebrated.
STEP 3
Think about the last mass you attended.
  • Can you identify the sanctuary?
  • During mass, were there humans present in the sanctuary?
  • Were any these folks dressed in civilian [ie non-religious] clothing?
  • The lectors?
  • The choir members?
  • Anyone else?
**
Step 4**
  • Any questions?
 
My dad told me that he remembers how, during the latin Mass, the men would stand in the back of the church and pop outside to have a smoke. This was long before the OF…is it the liturgy that is casual or people’s attitudes towards it? Lukewarmness has been around since the days of Christ Himself; if people could have walked away from Christ when they saw Him face to face, what makes anyone wonder that they would walk away from Him now?

It is not fair to blame every ill of the Church today on the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
QFT
its so easy for some people to make quick assumptions to support their agendas, but when asked to provide substance to the claims, they can’t make any. just because the timing is convenient to blame one thing, doesn’t mean it is the real cause.

i’m sure there are a lot of casual Catholics in the past, the same it is today. what complicates matters today is that there are many things that would lure people out of church on Sundays, which makes it easier to skip mass. and not just because someone’s at Mass mean’s they are there. they could be just paying lip service
 
I can only affirm what the church affirms, no matter how much I love the EF.

It’s what makes me NOT a schismatic.
 
STEP 3
Think about the last mass you attended.
  • Can you identify the sanctuary?
  • During mass, were there humans present in the sanctuary?
  • Were any these folks dressed in civilian [ie non-religious] clothing?
  • The lectors?
  • The choir members?
  • Anyone else?
**
Step 4**
  • Any questions?
Yes. I have question. Other than your interest in reenacting a Mass from 1960, and trying to get every detail correct, what is the real issue here? Non-religious people wearing non-religious garb in the santuary? Non-religious people participating in the Mass?

We are told that people who are not clergy should not confuse the faithful by wearing garments not appropriate to their state in life.
 
My Church certainly doesn’t sing “Amazing Grace” in the name of accomodation; they sing it because it’s a very nice song. And it is.
I take it you like bagpipe music? 🙂

Oh well. *De gustibus non est disputandum. *
 
Couldn’t we sing Veni Creator Spirtus instead of Amazing Grace. No theological quams with this oldie.

Veni Creator Spiritus / Amazing Grace

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now I’m found,
Was blind, but now I see.

Come, O Creator Spirit blest!
And in our souls take up Thy rest;
Come with Thy grace and heavenly aid,
to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.

Great Paraclete! To Thee we cry,
O highest gift of God most high!
O font of life! O fire of love!
And sweet anointing from above.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fear relieved;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believed!

Kindle our senses from above,
And make our hearts overflow with love;
With patience firm and virtue high
The weakness of our flesh supply.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
We have already come;
‘Twas grace that brought us safe thus far,
And grace will lead us home.

Far from us drive the foe we dread,
And grant us Thy true peace instead;
So shall we not, with Thee for guide,
Turn from the path of life aside.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun.

Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow
The Father and the Son to know,
And Thee, through endless times confessed,
Of both, the eternal Spirit blest.

All glory while the ages run
Be to the Father and the Son
Who rose from death; the same to Thee,
O Holy Ghost, eternally.
 
Obviously you’re partial to the melody/lyrics. Personally I just think it’s overplayed. Do they play anything else on bagpipes? 🙂
I do not like “Amazing Grace”. I think the melody is way too overplayed and doesn’t sound decent coming from anything from anything from a fife and drum group. The text is also troublesome. Even if it could be interpreted in a way to make it barely palatable to the Catholic faith (which I doubt), it is at best highly ambiguous and prone to all to easy non-Catholic interpretation and therefore should be avoided.

But, ProVobis, don’t dismiss all bagpipe music based on this one tune. 😉 There are many good pieces for bagpipes. My favorite is when the shepherds come down from the highlands of the lands of my forefathers to the villages at Christmas and play the zampongne (italian for bagpipes) to herald in the birth of Christ. Listen here. Or if you are looking for a more elegant display of bagpipe prowess, perhaps this may strike your fancy.
 
Yes. I have question. Other than your interest in reenacting a Mass from 1960, and trying to get every detail correct,
Are you saying that Tridentine Masses are not a holy sacrifice, but are actually reenactments? Just to be clear on what you’re saying.
 
Even though it would be more edifying than other OF masses, the time and effort necessary to create such a setting would be much better spent on a TLM. So my answer is definitely NO.
 
Are you saying that Tridentine Masses are not a holy sacrifice, but are actually reenactments? Just to be clear on what you’re saying.
I am saying that some people approach the Tridentine Mass with the fervor of American Civil War reenactors, trying to make sure that everything they do is true to the way it was in 1960.

Yes, it absolutely it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. But, it needs to live in 2010 just as much as it lived in 1960. And 1850.

I am not denigrating the TLM in any way. Or, at least I don’t mean to. But can’t it be played in 2010 under 2010 rules? As an example, some TLM adherents say that it is inappropriate for a married permanent deacon to vest and act as a deacon at a TLM, since there were no permanent deacons between Trent and VII.
 
  • Can you identify the sanctuary?
  • During mass, were there humans present in the sanctuary?
  • Were any these folks dressed in civilian [ie non-religious] clothing?
  • The lectors?
  • The choir members?
  • Anyone else?
**
Step 4**
  • Any questions?
Well, yes. What does being vested in the sanctuary have to do with the choir? Why would the choir be in the sanctuary ever?

–Jen
 
Nice, I love baroque music, even if you play it with rubber bands. 😃
Yup, I love the Baroque period, too – even though my favorite composer (Dvorak) wasn’t born until about 90 years after its close. 😉
 
STEP 1
Please read post #1 and note this item:
  • Civilian clothing in the sanctuary.
STEP 2
Please read post #38 and note these items:
  • Civilian clothing = tuxedo, business suit, pantsuit, wetsuit, cute dress, etc.
  • Religious clothing = cassock, surplice, alb, chasuble, dalmatic, etc.
  • Sanctuary = the area around the altar.
  • In our TLM community, no person approaches the Altar of God unless they are properly attired for their specific role in the sanctuary. Only the priest may authorize access to the sanctuary and it can be revoked at any time.
  • Altar servers and schola members suit up in white surplice, black cassock, trousers, socks and shoes. The schola leader / lector is a religious brother and seminarian. He wears the habit of his order. Priests wear the proper vestment for the liturgical season or feast that is being celebrated.
STEP 3
Think about the last mass you attended.
  • Can you identify the sanctuary?
  • During mass, were there humans present in the sanctuary?
  • Were any these folks dressed in civilian [ie non-religious] clothing?
  • The lectors?
  • The choir members?
  • Anyone else?
**
Step 4**
  • Any questions?
The priest and deacon wore vestments. The altar servers wore white robes. The readers and EHMCs, from what I can recall, wore appropriate, modest clothing, as did the choir (they’re seated off to the side, not in the area of the altar or tabernacle.) Didn’t bother me a bit, because I was focusing on Christ in the Eucharist and not on what people were wearing.
 
Yes. I have question. Other than your interest in reenacting a Mass from 1960, and trying to get every detail correct, what is the real issue here? Non-religious people wearing non-religious garb in the santuary? Non-religious people participating in the Mass?

We are told that people who are not clergy should not confuse the faithful by wearing garments not appropriate to their state in life.
I have no interest in re-enacting a Mass from the 1960’s

I know it is possible for an OF Mass to be offered by a one priest assisted by one altar server. The faithful participate by offering the appropriate responses to the prayers of the priest. The priest does the scripture readings himself. The altar server assists with the presentation of gifts, the lavabo, and all the responses. I go to a daily, early morning Novus Ordo Mass which is offered exactly like this.

I realize that this type of Novus Ordo offering is rare. The reason is because many novelties have been “allowed” to infiltrate into the Novus Ordo since its introduction in 1970. Novelties are extraneous, non-essential features which are not required to validly confect the Blessed Sacrament in Mass. I have no interest in removing one word from the Mass originally promulgated by Pope Paul VI.

I also realize that many novelties have become so assimilated into the hearts of some Catholics that they consider these novelties to be “Catholic”. During the past 40 years, the Novus Ordo Mass has become the de facto proving ground for liturgical novelty. I have no interest in reversing that trend at this time.

On the other hand, there are faithful Catholics who are repulsed by modernist inventions that they feel obstructs the worship and glorification of God in Mass. Many of these folks avoid the current OF as if it were - in itself - the near occasion of sin.

I started this thread to find out if common ground could be found. In my original list of examples, I offered what I thought would be steps in the right direction. Many have responded that there are at least some of these items that they could easily do without. I think that’s promising.

Make no mistake. I am not suggesting that every existing OF Mass be stripped of all novelty. Novelists have a right to exist and deserve whatever novelty is not specifically prohibited by laws of the Church.

I am suggesting that there may be interest in a more direct approach to the Ordinary Form which would attract a crossover of those who - under the existing state of Catholic liturgical practice - demand one form and reject the other.

Sometimes less is more. Obviously, sometimes not.
 
The priest and deacon wore vestments. The altar servers wore white robes. The readers and EHMCs, from what I can recall, wore appropriate, modest clothing, as did the choir (they’re seated off to the side, not in the area of the altar or tabernacle.) Didn’t bother me a bit, because I was focusing on Christ in the Eucharist and not on what people were wearing.
No questions?

Good.
 
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