Would you support it if the Civil Law Give Right for Husband to Consent to/ Forbid Wife's Abortion

[francisca.chapter3]

From a strictly practical point of view, one might support or reject such a law based solely upon whether or not there would be fewer or more abortions

Yes.

To argue based on statistic alone ( illegalize abortion may create good statistic record), one may forget that even good statistic (abortion number down), it is still a number. The question is-- with porn billion dollar business-- how low is acceptable a number ? How low do we see it as “insignificant number”?

Moreover, utilitatrian philosophy always create a very slippery slope. First reduce them to number. When number is acceptable, then there will be a new way to exploit them. Because utilitarian philosophy essentially is to reduce the dignity of human person unto mere exploitation that benefit some, but detrimental for the victims.

One may then argue, how about the fetus life?

Fetus is a potential human person. The mother is a person. If we fail to defend woman’s privacy right, we will not be able to defend it from utilitarian culture which surely will exploit both woman and her children.

For example, now we have research using fetal tissue. Fetal tissue has economic value. It can be “useful” to “save” humanity. Utilitarian philosophy here. Or enviromental concerns: too many humans. Government come up with rules limiting population. Or, we need more troops for foreseen future big war. Women are useful for breeding more troops for war, for the sake of tribal victory, or, most noble purpose: to save lives of many.

Utilitarian philosophy.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

And Porn is utilitarian philosophy too.

One may argue that porn is harmless. It is
exploitation of real humans for self gratification of some.

But we are immune to it. Our hearts are hardened looking at women being robbed of their body on the computer screens as if they are not real: somebody’s daughter, somebody’s wife, somebody’s sister.

With us immune to porn, religious people begin to think in this way: it’s normal, it is what women are for! They want abortion because they rebel against their duty. They want convenience!

 

[francisca.chapter3]

And let me address abortion as fetus murder:

Can the law prosecute these people as the murderer? If can’t, then it is not possible to frame abortion as murder.

Murder case needs murderer, and should be penalized under crime law for murder.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Rape is under crime law. If husband is proven without a doubt rape wife, resulting in pregnancy, then does he still have a right to say no to abortion if wife desires it? In my opinion, no. God does not will it, that husband rape his wife.

No one has a right to offend other people, and still maintain the same standing with those who abide within the law. Those who are law abiding should get their cases defended against those who offend them.

 

[jeannetherese]

The vast majority of abortions happen too early in pregnancy for the embryo to be aware of what’s happening to it. It’s perfectly understandable why a lot of pregnant women would find that preferable to birthing a child who would be in danger of abuse from their father.

People are in danger of abuse all of their lives; we don’t kill them to help them avoid the danger.

 

[MamaJewel]

Prolife movement should demand than man of good intent takes care of his family

In the US, a person has the right of free association. This is the challenge for the courts: it can force a parent to pay child support, but it can’t force a parent to spend a more than a minimal amount of time with his child.

I use the term male because in American society females are usually the primary parent when children are born in wedlock or out of it.

The family law courts don’t have a problem with one parent wanting to spend minimal time with their child. The problem arises when both parents want to spend minimal time with their child. Who would take care of the child in the meantime.

Because law can’t truly create a fair balance between parents, it becomes a woman’s problem because she is the mother, placed in the default role by society.

Like I learned years ago when my husband left the family, you can’t make a parent engage with his children if he doesn’t want to.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Needless to say, it is a complicated subject.
It is tough to apply black and white laws to a world full of shades of gray.

 

[MamaJewel]

People are in danger of abuse all of their lives; we don’t kill them to help them avoid the danger.

I have heard so many people say that abortion is commendable because it prevents unwanted children from being born and ultimately abused. I can’t believe it when I hear that children in foster care would have been better off aborted.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there is a movement in the future to do away with unwanted individuals (old, young, or disabled) or victims of abuse. We’re becoming a very utilitarian society. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others. Glad I am no longer pro-choice. If we want equality for women, we will have to treat all humans with respect and dignity, including a human embryo and human fetus.

 

[SadPotato]

People are in danger of abuse all of their lives; we don’t kill them to help them avoid the danger.

You missed the point. There are plenty of cases where men will use pregnancy to keep their wives/partners/girlfriends trapped and under their control, and such men are very liable to abuse their children once they’re born. Not to mention that having children with your abuser makes it much, much harder to leave them, and near impossible to cease all contact with them.

In these cases, abortion is often the preferable option for both the mother and the embryo (who is not going to have any cognitive awareness at the point when most abortions are carried out).

 

[QwertyGirl]

I am amazed at the number of people who claim to never have known someone whose circumstances were so awful that they wish they had never been born. I have personally known a few, and I come from a pretty vanilla, middle class upbringing. I am not talking about circumstances that could easily be changed with a few dollars put in the right direction. I am talking about people who were born with chronic illness or into a childhood of abuse and weren’t able to recover even with the best of care .

 

[Elf01]

I am amazed at the number of people who claim to never have known someone whose circumstances were so awful that they wish they had never been born. I have personally known a few, and I come from a pretty vanilla, middle class upbringing. I am not talking about circumstances that could easily be changed with a few dollars put in the right direction. I am talking about people who were born with chronic illness or into a childhood of abuse and weren’t able to recover even with the best of care .

My response to that is why are you still alive then?

 

[MamaJewel]

You missed the point. There are plenty of cases where men will use pregnancy to keep their wives/partners/girlfriends trapped and under their control, and such men are very liable to abuse their children once they’re born. Not to mention that having children with your abuser makes it much, much harder to leave them, and near impossible to cease all contact with them.

This is hard to read, even though I know you mean well by your words.

I can’t buy into this though. Women deserve better than to have to terminate the life of the human in their uterus. I have met many women at my local crisis center, and their pregnant bellies are a sign of hope and love! I dunno. We rally around these women because we know pregnancy creates additional obstacles, but there has been enough violence already. We don’t have to encourage more of it.

We wouldn’t think of encouraging a mother to kill the children she shares with an abusive partner. We shouldn’t expect it for pregnancy either.

The onus should be placed on the abuser, not the victim, imho. It’s like, “kill this human in here, so the abuser can’t hurt another person once he/she is born”.

 

[QwertyGirl]

My response to that is why are you still alive then?

I don’t struggle with a response to the people in the position I reference. I struggle with understanding how pro-life people don’t seem to get that there really are people in this life who feel that way about their own life.

 

[Elf01]

I don’t struggle with a response to the people in the position I reference. I struggle with understanding how pro-life people don’t seem to get that there really are people in this life who feel that way about their own life.

I believe that anyone who truly felt that way would have committed suicide.

 

[MamaJewel]

I am amazed at the number of people who claim to never have known someone whose circumstances were so awful that they wish they had never been born. I have personally known a few, and I come from a pretty vanilla, middle class upbringing. I am not talking about circumstances that could easily be changed with a few dollars put in the right direction. I am talking about people who were born with chronic illness or into a childhood of abuse and weren’t able to recover even with the best of care .

I have met many people who despaired as well.

My response to that is why are you still alive then?

Nooooo

I believe that anyone who truly felt that way would have committed suicide.

If they are male, they probably have died by suicide. If they are female, they probably have made several attempts on their own life, but did not die because the methods women use are not as deadly as those chosen by their male counterparts.

This is so sad, many people are depressed and despairing, wishing they were never born.

 

[SadPotato]

Women deserve better than to have to terminate the life of the human in their uterus.

Women deserve to make the decision on their own.

We wouldn’t think of encouraging a mother to kill the children she shares with an abusive partner. We shouldn’t expect it for pregnancy either.

An embryo with no cognitive activity, ability to feel pain, or capacity to live exist outside of the mother’s body is not in the same ballpark as a born child who has all of these traits.

Again, I don’t “expect” pregnant women in abusive situations to abort: I just understand that it’s their decision, and no one else’s.

 

[SadPotato]

My response to that is why are you still alive then?

Pretty rude, dude.

 

[MamaJewel]

An embryo with no cognitive activity, ability to feel pain, or capacity to live exist outside of the mother’s body is not in the same ballpark as a born child who has all of these traits.

But they’re still both human beings with human rights. The difference is that one’s potential is a bit different from the other’s.

Trust me, just because science hasn’t advanced techniques that promote growth of the human zygote through the end of its fetal period outside of the uterus, doesn’t mean it’s (the growing human) of any less value than the woman who carries it. I guess it depends on personal perspective that defines another’s human value. For me, the inability of an embryo to mirror our cognition doesn’t make it any less important to me. We’ve only known about human DNA for little over 60 years.

A growing human embryo is using more DNA code in its little being, than older humans do. It’s literally accessing and using the aspects of DNA that make us human.

Whether in a petri dish or in a uterus, the human embryo and human fetus deserve to be respected and protected, just like other human beings. Besides, these tiny humans may have a different type of cognition that we are not currently aware of.

 

[jeannetherese]

There are plenty of cases where men will use pregnancy to keep their wives/partners/girlfriends trapped and under their control, and such men are very liable to abuse their children once they’re born.

I’m confused about your point. Why is killing kids the way to deal with abusive males? It seems to me that you are encouraging more people to engage in abusive behavior: instead of just 1 abusive person-the father, we now have an abusive mother to boot.
I think this might fit into the two wrongs don’t make a right category.

 

[jeannetherese]

Of course those people you are telling us about, had to live in order to make that determination. And, oftentimes, people going through depression if prevented from killing themselves, will look back on their hard times and be grateful to have survived.