Would you support mandatory tracking devices on all new cars?

[Robert_Sock]

You may not understand this, but people can and are owned as much by their material possessions as they own them. I’m not talking about the 1%er out there, I’m talking about ordinary folks.

Look at it: you have a house → you must have a source of income to pay for the mortgage (if you have one), the maintenance, the electricity, the water, the gas, the taxes, etc., that are all associated with that house.

You have a car → you must have a source of income to pay for the gas and maintenance and insurance and tags for that car.

You have stuff → you must have a place to keep that stuff (clothes, food, computer, cell phone, etc.) so that it doesn’t get damaged by weather, eaten by vermin, or stolen. Chances are, that place to store your stuff is your home. But even a homeless person who has stuff has to protect that stuff from damage…even if that is a shopping cart and a trash bag. And just try to separate a homeless person from his shopping cart.

All of that stuff impedes your ability to be totally free, as it ties you down to one degree or another. The more stuff…the more support your stuff needs. And the bigger your requirements.

Then that locks you into a job where you are an indentured servant (e.g., a slave) of your boss or into running your own business where you place yourself in servitude to your customers.

As a free person, though, I still have the liberty to tell my boss to “take this job and shove it” (to quote the famous old David Allen Coe song). If I own my own business, I still have the right to tell a customer that I won’t do business with him. Now, there would be consequences to those decisions…but it’s my choice to do so.

In a socialist world, I would no longer have that right. In a socialist world, the government provides my dwelling, the government provides my food, and the government provides my stuff (including the clothes on my back). And I have lost the ability to say “no, thanks…I think I want to go to Africa for a few years to work with the destitute there” I no longer can say, “the weather in DC stinks…I think I’ll move to Dallas.” Or…“no thanks, I think I’d prefer to just drop out.”

To repeat, I am not talking about the Bill Gates’ or the Warren Buffets of the world. I’m just talking about ordinary folks.

And, unless there is reasonable cause to suspect I’ve committed by a crime, as validated by a court, the government does NOT have the right to track me, profile me, or do anything to me other than leave me the heck alone.

Just something to think about, Robert.

I have not stated this before, but I actually think I value capitalism, but only for a given amount of time in history. I think the time is fast approaching where it will be replaced by a special form of socialism. When LOVE comes to town, so too will socialism.

 

[TEPO]

And while we’re at it, let’s keep everyone’s DNA on file just in case.

Right! By analyzing their DNA we can also check them for diseases with government mandated healthcare. Mandatory medicine could be administered! Must give!

Also, DNA that shows evidence of ‘rebellionism’ would assure that those who are prone to resistance could be offered the appropriate psychological ‘training’ or ‘housing’. .

Love your neighbors!

 

[DaveBj]

I have not stated this before, but I actually think I value capitalism, but only for a given amount of time in history. I think the time is fast approaching where it will be replaced by a special form of socialism. When LOVE comes to town, so too will socialism.

You are 180 degrees out of phase. Socialism is the government taking what you have to give it to those who they think need it. Love is you yourself seeing the need and taking care of it yourself.

But talk of love and socialism is off-topic; the original topic was tracking devices on cars. Great idea, if you enjoy living in a dictatorship. Bad idea in a free society.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Would these things really happen? Or, are you being pessimistic? Driving has always been a privilege, and applying a tracking device may therefore be fully right and moral.

LOVE!

Perhaps you could study the history of governments and what they have done with the records they have collected–you might then feel differently. Secondly driving has not always been a privilege – originally it was something anyone with the money and the inclination to could do. In 1899 you have the first two states that require testing–but you don’t need a license. 1903 is the frist time a state requires a license and 1909 is the first time that a state has an age restriction. What law did US citizens of Japanese heritage break before their property was seized and they were rounded up and stuck in internment camps in the early 1940’s?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Why stop at the cars? Why not stick tags on our ears with location devices:

http://www.vetsonline.com/img/cafeolix/cow-with-ear-tag-bdr.jpg

 

[DaveBj]

Why stop at the cars? Why not stick tags on our ears with location devices:

http://www.vetsonline.com/img/cafeolix/cow-with-ear-tag-bdr.jpg

Yeah, that way they could see us every time we moo-ve.

Sorry.

No, I’m not.

It’s probably going to come to that (tracking devices in every car), but I’m glad I’m not going to live to see that kind of Orwellian society.

 

[tabycat]

Do you value it more than LOVE of your neighbor?

LOVE!

Why not be able to love your neighbor, their rights, and your rights??

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yeah, that way they could see us every time we moo-ve.

Sorry.

No, I’m not.

It’s probably going to come to that (tracking devices in every car), but I’m glad I’m not going to live to see that kind of Orwellian society.

Like a contagion, LOVE will come to the rescue, and people will bathe in spiritual love not seen since the Pentecost. All this you and I will probably have to view from elsewhere.

LOVE!

 

[tabycat]

:

Wear sunglasses. Some of the facial recognition algorithms can’t get enough information to recognize some one when they can’t see your eyes.

Now back to work. I am figuring out how to use these Bluetooth low energy beacons to detect some one’s arrival, departure, and dwell times.

 

[Cimachol]

Why would they seek this information from you if are a law abiding citizen?

Maybe because you are a political opponent or saying something inconvenient for someone in power, and someone in the system wants you stopped.

Or, maybe the law has been corrupted, and being a law-abiding citizen is no longer morally acceptable, in which case you don’t want the people in power to have more tools in their hands than they do already.

Both scenarios do occur in our world from time to time.

If the police were conducting a specific investigation and were able to get a warrant to slip a tracker onto a specific person’s vehicle, I’d have no problem with that. But giving the government the power to look over your shoulder whenever it wants without cause is incredibly dangerous, given the corruptibility of power.

 

[tabycat]

I have not stated this before, but I actually think I value capitalism, but only for a given amount of time in history. I think the time is fast approaching where it will be replaced by a special form of socialism. When LOVE comes to town, so too will socialism.

That ‘tpecial form of socialism’ is called capitalism because love does not equile socialism.

 

[freeRadical]

The government most certainly does know the amount of money in our bank accounts using our SSN’s, but I can’t find it using Google. Anyway, the NSA has to have access to this information.

My bank account information is not linked to my SSN. The NSA may have access to that information but if they do, they got it illegally and unconstitutionally.

Through insurance policies.

My car insurance is not linked to my SSN or my driver’s license, it is on my registration.

National security trumps Fourth Amendment rights. SSN’s are attached to credit and debit card data.

You need to go back to school and to a civics class. Nothing trumps the Constitution, not even national security. Those rights are guaranteed and the government cannot infringe on them, even in the name of national security or the “good” of society.

It seems to me you like big, totalitarian government that trump people’s rights.

Do you have any proof that SSN’s are attached to credit and debit card data? If so, they need a warrant to subpoena that information. It’s called the Fourth Amendment.

I once lived in an apartment building where a husband and wife lived who were always fighting intensely. Anyway, the man had a gun, and everyone feared that he could easily use it to kill his wife. One day the police came when he and his wife were out, busted the door down, and took the gun!!! I was so impressed with the action of the police! Way to go to prevent a likely homicide! (I’m not sure if they had some kind of a warrant.)

First off, what does that have to do with what I posted? I never said the police didn’t know where I lived, I said they have no way of knowing, in real time, where I am at this very moment.

Second, they didn’t need a warrant in that case, they had probable cause. So they took the gun but didn’t arrest the husband? On what grounds did they justify taking the gun? What law did he break? They couldn’t have done that in my state. Just because you think somebody might do something does not give you any right to infringe on their constitutional rights. I guess he’ll just have to find another way to kill his wife. If they wife had a gun herself then she wouldn’t have to fear her husband.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Maybe because you are a political opponent or saying something inconvenient for someone in power, and someone in the system wants you stopped.

Or, maybe the law has been corrupted, and being a law-abiding citizen is no longer morally acceptable, in which case you don’t want the people in power to have more tools in their hands than they do already.

Both scenarios do occur in our world from time to time.

If the police were conducting a specific investigation and were able to get a warrant to slip a tracker onto a specific person’s vehicle, I’d have no problem with that. But giving the government the power to look over your shoulder whenever it wants without cause is incredibly dangerous, given the corruptibility of power.

How realistic do you think it is for these things to happen? Could it be paranoia?

 

[freeRadical]

How realistic do you think it is for these things to happen? Could it be paranoia?

They happened all the time. Are you seriously that ignorant of history?

 

[Cimachol]

How realistic do you think it is for these things to happen? Could it be paranoia?

2,000 years of Christian martyrdom isn’t enough to convince you that governments don’t always work for the moral good? How about the history of Soviet Union? China? North Korea? Nazi Germany?

Even here in the United States, we are still investigating the apparent targeting of conservative groups by the IRS. Surely you don’t think those same officials would be opposed to using other means to target groups they don’t like? So if you think the U.S. is incorruptible, think again.

Maybe read up on why the Fourth Amendment was enacted in the first place before advocating for Big Brother-style monitoring of society.

 

[Robert_Sock]

My bank account information is not linked to my SSN. The NSA may have access to that information but if they do, they got it illegally and unconstitutionally.

Reality comes in layers. At deeper levels, none of us really have any rights that are of any value.

I would probably need to call my bank to see what information they need in order to set up an account, which I do not feel like doing at present, but I think I remember giving them my SSN and my driver’s license.

My car insurance is not linked to my SSN or my driver’s license, it is on my registration.

I thought I remembered my insurance company requesting my driver’s license number.

My disability insurance policy through Liberty Mutual definitely has my SSN.

You need to go back to school and to a civics class. Nothing trumps the Constitution, not even national security. Those rights are guaranteed and the government cannot infringe on them, even in the name of national security or the “good” of society.

It all depends on one’s perceptions of reality. Where in the bible does it say that we have any rights in our lowly world? If Christ was stripped of all His rights just before His crucifixion, how are we to expect rights while carrying His cross? Besides, earthly rights are as nothing in comparison to the delights of the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me you like big, totalitarian government that trump people’s rights.

Again, people never had any rights worth talking about.

Do you have any proof that SSN’s are attached to credit and debit card data? If so, they need a warrant to subpoena that information. It’s called the Fourth Amendment.

No, but I trust that they are.

First off, what does that have to do with what I posted? I never said the police didn’t know where I lived, I said they have no way of knowing, in real time, where I am at this very moment.

Second, they didn’t need a warrant in that case, they had probable cause. So they took the gun but didn’t arrest the husband? On what grounds did they justify taking the gun? What law did he break? They couldn’t have done that in my state. Just because you think somebody might do something does not give you any right to infringe on their constitutional rights. I guess he’ll just have to find another way to kill his wife. If they wife had a gun herself then she wouldn’t have to fear her husband.

It really has nothing to do with what you posted, but came to mind in my response to you; I thought it would interest you.

No, the man was never arrested, and he never mentioned anything about a warrant. But he did think his rights were violated and sought my advice. I told him that he would need a lawyer, and he told me he could not afford one. My response went something like: “Then you’re plain out of luck.”

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

2,000 years of Christian martyrdom isn’t enough to convince you that governments don’t always work for the moral good? How about the history of Soviet Union? China? North Korea? Nazi Germany?

Even here in the United States, we are still investigating the apparent targeting of conservative groups by the IRS. Surely you don’t think those same officials would be opposed to using other means to target groups they don’t like? So if you think the U.S. is incorruptible, think again.

Maybe read up on why the Fourth Amendment was enacted in the first place before advocating for Big Brother-style monitoring of society.

I thought we were talking about two specific fears that you have? See the quote.

Maybe because you are a political opponent or saying something inconvenient for someone in power, and someone in the system wants you stopped.

Or, maybe the law has been corrupted, and being a law-abiding citizen is no longer morally acceptable, in which case you don’t want the people in power to have more tools in their hands than they do already.

 

[Cimachol]

I thought we were talking about two specific fears that you have? See the quote.

Exactly. In the examples I listed, governments used their powers to punish people who were political opponents, who spoke out against them, or who refused to comply with unjust laws.

Fear of corrupt government is not “paranoia,” which, by definition, means an irrational fear. The danger and reality of government corruption has been proven time and time again.

But if you really want to live under a government that will try to monitor your every move, I’m sure there are countries to which you can immigrate that have such things in place. No sense ruining this one for everyone else.

 

[freeRadical]

Reality comes in layers. At deeper levels, none of us really have any rights that are of any value.

Yes we do. The fact that you think people don’t have any rights, that are of any value, just confirms to me how ignorant you are of Catholic teaching.

I would probably need to call my bank to see what information they need in order to set up an account, which I do not feel like doing at present, but I think I remember giving them my SSN and my driver’s license.

Just because your bank requires your SSN to set up an account doesn’t mean that the government has access to that information. If they do, it’s illegal an unconstitutional. Period.

I thought I remembered my insurance company requesting my driver’s license number.

My disability insurance policy through Liberty Mutual definitely has my SSN.

Yes, your insurance company requires proof that you can legally drive before they insure you. That doesn’t mean that a government can find out what kind of car I drive from just my driver’s license information.

It all depends on one’s perceptions of reality. Where in the bible does it say that we have any rights in our lowly world? If Christ was stripped of all His rights just before His crucifixion, how are we to expect rights while carrying His cross? Besides, earthly rights are as nothing in comparison to the delights of the Holy Spirit.

This, again, shows me just how ignorant you are of Catholic teaching. We do have God-given natural rights and the Catholic Church states this explicitly. You really should read more of the Popes’ encyclicals.

Again, people never had any rights worth talking about.

Yes we do and the Catholic Church agrees.

No, but I trust that they are.

Just because you believe something to be true, doesn’t mean it is.

No, the man was never arrested, and he never mentioned anything about a warrant. But he did think his rights were violated and sought my advice. I told him that he would need a lawyer, and he told me he could not afford one. My response went something like: “Then you’re plain out of luck.”

LOVE!

Did the man ever kill his wife? So his constitutional rights were violated and you applaud this? If his rights were violated, he could find many lawyers that would represent him pro bono.

 

[freeRadical]

Yes we do. The fact that you think people don’t have any rights, that are of any value, just confirms to me how ignorant you are of Catholic teaching.

Just because your bank requires your SSN to set up an account doesn’t mean that the government has access to that information. If they do, it’s illegal an unconstitutional. Period.

Yes, your insurance company requires proof that you can legally drive before they insure you. That doesn’t mean that a government can find out what kind of car I drive from just my driver’s license information.

This, again, shows me just how ignorant you are of Catholic teaching. We do have God-given natural rights and the Catholic Church states this explicitly. You really should read more of the Popes’ encyclicals.

Yes we do and the Catholic Church agrees.

Just because you believe something to be true, doesn’t mean it is.

Did the man ever kill his wife? So his constitutional rights were violated and you applaud this? If his rights were violated, he could find many lawyers that would represent him pro bono.