Would you support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular?

[ProVobis]

Benedict lamented that many Catholic priests did not know Latin, the official language of the Church.

He said **Latin should be used in parts of large open-air masses **held at international gatherings “to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church”.

He said he wanted to see more Latin and more Gregorian chant used in Church services.

“Certainly, as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another,” he said.

reuters.com/article/idUSN1340012320070313

 

[ProVobis]

Pope: seminaries must teach Latin Mass

Bad news for England’s ludicrously overstaffed Catholic seminaries, one of which employs 37 staff for 32 students. The Pope wants them to teach trainee priests how to say the traditional Latin Mass. They won’t like that!

England’s seminaries are all pretty much in the same mould: Left-leaning, liturgically trendy, politically correct, therapy-obsessed and terrified of a younger generation of conservative Catholics. Most of them would rather teach Unitarian circle-dancing than the Tridentine Mass. But they may not have much choice.

The pontifical commission Ecclesia Dei, unimpressed by certain bishops’ sour response to the liberation of the Latin Mass, realises that there is a shortage of priests who know how to celebrate the complicated ancient liturgy. Since demand for it is rising, seminaries will need to address this problem.

In America, some bishops have anticipated this situation. Two seminaries in Pennsylvania St Vincent, Latrobe, and St Charles Borromeo, Philadelphia have just announced that they will be teaching the “extraordinary form”, as it is now known.

There are four seminaries in England and to say that they are not bursting at the seams is putting it mildly. I reckon there are not many more than 100 English seminarians in all of them combined. Yet the bishops cannot reach agreement on which, if any, to close.

The seminaries, you see, employ a whole army of hand-wringing, Tablet-reading types whose job it is to mould trainee priests in their own image. The really good boys will be sent to plum parishes, then shuffled around the diocesan curia a bit until they return to the seminaries as lecturers; then, if they are really, really good, they are made an auxiliary bishop.

(None of which, of course, is supposed to cast aspersions on the academic standards at these institutions. Why, at one seminary, there are no fewer than three three! people with doctorates on the teaching staff of around 30.)

Anyway, teaching seminarians to follow the rubrics of the Missal of Blessed Pope John XXIII doesn’t fit into this picture at all. Just think of the shrieks of horror if the Holy Father puts his foot down.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/3682801/Pope_seminaries_must_teach_Latin_Mass/

 

[Timothysis]

Everyone take cover…ProVobis is on one of his latin kicks again…

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Wow. Long thread. Before I could vote I need to see the complete question. Would I support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular as an alternative to what?

As an alternative to a Latin Novus Ordo? Yes.
As an alternative to the Traditional Latin Mass? No.

 

[Lycorth]

Wow. Long thread. Before I could vote I need to see the complete question. Would I support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular as an alternative to what?

As an alternative to a Latin Novus Ordo? Yes.
As an alternative to the Traditional Latin Mass? No.

An alternative to the Novus Ordo in any language. Didn’t realize the field would cut my text off so soon.

Nothing can supplant the Traditional Mass in Latin. But a Traditional Mass even in the vernacular is still preferable, I think.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

An alternative to the Novus Ordo in any language. Didn’t realize the field would cut my text off so soon.

Nothing can supplant the Traditional Mass in Latin. But a Traditional Mass even in the vernacular is still preferable, I think.

Hey Lycorth. Thanks.

I just added my vote in the affirmative.

 

[Hesychios]

A church of a billion people has the resources to make good translations in many languages, as many different liturgical texts as it has of approved biblical texts, to reach the majority of the world’s people with Truth.

I don’t see how.

It’s not even my church, it’s yours, and I give the hierarchy and scholars in the church a lot more credit than you apparently do.

My point stands. If the church can translate the Holy Scriptures appropriately into languages from around the world, it can translate the Mass with the same aplomb.

 

[Hesychios]

… I’m not even bothering to read or respond to the rest of your post for this reason.

How odd, I thought that quote was from near the end of my post.

 

[choy]

Nothing can supplant the Traditional Mass in Latin. But a Traditional Mass even in the vernacular is still preferable, I think.

if other Rites were able to translate their Masses/Divine Liturgy into the vernacular, no doubt the Roman Catholic Church can translate the TLM into any language

and as Hesychios pointed out, if Scripture can be translated, why not Mass?

 

[dragonlady708]

I would support the accurate translation of the MEF (Missa Extraordinare Forma) IN ADDITION TO the Latin Celebration. What I LOVE about the MEF is that it IS so reverent and quiet, even when it IS a Solemn High Mass, with chant (I belong to a small schola). I love the rubrics, the posturing of the priest, in persona Christi, LEADING His flock to God. …Think about this: Did anyone watch the movie, “Passion of the Christ”? Does anyone realize how many languages were spoken in it? Probably not… BUT we all watched intently now, didn’t we? If we approach the MASS with the same intensity and gratefulness, would the verbiage really matter?

God bless all of you, nomatter which side of the fence you lean to…At least you CARE about our Blessed Sacrament, The Eucharist Celebration!:**

 

[MarkThompson]

I would support the accurate translation of the MEF (Missa Extraordinare Forma) IN ADDITION TO the Latin Celebration. What I LOVE about the MEF is that it IS so reverent and quiet, even when it IS a Solemn High Mass, with chant (I belong to a small schola). I love the rubrics, the posturing of the priest, in persona Christi, LEADING His flock to God. …Think about this: Did anyone watch the movie, “Passion of the Christ”? Does anyone realize how many languages were spoken in it? Probably not… BUT we all watched intently now, didn’t we? If we approach the MASS with the same intensity and gratefulness, would the verbiage really matter?**

If the verbiage doesn’t matter, then why do you care about having an accurate translation?

 

[dragonlady708]

I’m sorry… Maybe “verbiage” isn’t the correct term…All I meant is that whether we adored God in the Mass, as close as possible to the manner that Christ would have wanted us to, that I would find either language acceptable… I’m not very fond of the “hand-holding” and some of the lack of reverence that happens in some of the Masses I’ve participated in…I feel that Mass is for worshipping, thanking, begging for forgiveness to/from God, and that our Catholic community spirit is what we should LIVE throughout our lives and in our parish interactions and in our dealings with all the inhabitants of the world(s). Please forgive me…

 

[Lycorth]

if other Rites were able to translate their Masses/Divine Liturgy into the vernacular, no doubt the Roman Catholic Church can translate the TLM into any language

and as Hesychios pointed out, if Scripture can be translated, why not Mass?

I agree. As I’ll always say, I still believe that Latin is the best and is the most practical language in terms of universality and sacredness, but the Traditional Mass can most surely be simply translated into the vernacular as easily as anything else can, and without offending the dignity of the Lord nor of His Church. The superior Missal and form of the Traditional Mass are also sorely needed in this time; sure, it’s probably never going to happen, but I remain firm in my conviction that it would be infinitely preferable to the Novus Ordo Mass.

Though I will always side with those who support the restoration of Latin as well, because…

Think about this: Did anyone watch the movie, “Passion of the Christ”? Does anyone realize how many languages were spoken in it? Probably not… BUT we all watched intently now, didn’t we?

We all watched this film, no one complained that it was in a language we don’t think in, and the fact it was translated for us as we went along thanks to subtitles made it all the easier. If folks can do that, there is no reason anyone can complain about Latin being used at Mass, especially since we go to more Masses than watch The Passion of the Christ.

 

[Timothysis]

Think about this: Did anyone watch the movie, “Passion of the Christ”? Does anyone realize how many languages were spoken in it? Probably not… BUT we all watched intently now, didn’t we? If we approach the MASS with the same intensity and gratefulness, would the verbiage really matter?

The Passion of the Christ had subtitles in English; if they were in Latin, then I would have had no idea as to what was being spoken.

 

[choy]

We all watched this film, no one complained that it was in a language we don’t think in, and the fact it was translated for us as we went along thanks to subtitles made it all the easier. If folks can do that, there is no reason anyone can complain about Latin being used at Mass, especially since we go to more Masses than watch The Passion of the Christ.

while i used to be a big anime fan and loved watching in original Japanese with subtitles, i also hated having to do that. either i’m too caught up with the visuals and miss the words, or too caught up with the words and miss the action.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Passion of the Christ had subtitles in English; if they were in Latin, then I would have had no idea as to what was being spoken.

I think the point is that at a Latin mass you can read the English “sub-titles” in the translation in the missal.

 

[choy]

I think the point is that at a Latin mass you can read the English “sub-titles” in the translation in the missal.

yes but that takes your focus off whats happening in front of you

 

[JackQ]

From the Baltimore Catechism:

The problem is, even back then the entire Church didn’t worship in Latin. I refer, of course, to the Eastern Catholics. I actually prefer the Tridentine Mass in many particulars, and I wish that I could hear Gregorian Chant at every Mass (although some of the music I’ve heard from the Russian Orthodox liturgy seems its equal). But much of what I hear from Traditionalists indicates an apparent obliviousness to the eastern rites, and that is of concern to me.

 

[JackQ]

What !?!

Have they changed it again? !

I lived through the first time. By my own estimation I have attended nearly 700 Latin Masses, and I remember the chaotic effects implementing the New Mass had on our parish when I was young

I think the poverty of the ICEL translation was a tragedy as well, but this (in a convoluted sort of way) just goes to demonstrate the dangers of allowing the general population to translate the prayers of the liturgy on their own, because even the so-called “experts” working together as a team have had a tough time of doing it well. How does the average Joe Sixpack manage it on his own?

People around here complain of the catechesis problems in the Catholic church (and some seem ignorant of the fact that this is not just a post Vat II problem, but goes way back), but don’t see that the Mass has been woefully deficient as a catechetical instrument.

Which is the whole point of our discussion, isn’t it?

What’s the point of having correct theology expressed in prayer except that people learn from the prayers of the Mass, directly or subliminally. If the prayers are not directly understandable, the people will not learn (and possibly remain at an infantile level of understanding), if the prayers (and hymns, as sung prayer) are not crafted well in the language, people will learn insufficiently, or even wrongly. This will happen either directly or subliminally, or possibly a little of both.

This happens to be one of the issues with the Creed. The Latin translation has been deficient in expressing the content of the original Nicea-Constantinopolitan Creed. And so we see a divergence in Christian traditions over something which was supposed to be so basic and fundamental to both.
Again, not so. This is only your perspective.

The same high degree of thought that has gone into the Latin translation of the Mass can be given to any translation, and the same types and numbers of defficiencies the Latin has been subject to are a danger to any translation.

A church of a billion people has the resources to make good translations in many languages, as many different liturgical texts as it has of approved biblical texts, to reach the majority of the world’s people with Truth.

And you would have us do this ourselves, in our own heads?

Hesychios, I actually agree with everything you said here!

 

[The_Reginator]

I think the point is that at a Latin mass you can read the English “sub-titles” in the translation in the missal.

yes but that takes your focus off whats happening in front of you

I was able to go to an EF Mass for the first few years after my conversion to Catholicism.
You get used to it fast. It is still the Mass, the form of Mass that remained steady for hundreds of years.
I only needed the English side of the Missal for the readings and the Propers. I usually read all those before the start of Mass anyway. I also found that my understanding of the Latin improved week by week.

So the ‘subtitles’ didn’t distract at all since I already knew what was being said – it largely did not change from Mass to Mass.