Would you support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular?

[jonpd]

There is one solution that would get us a long way to correcting the defects in the OF and not require any changes to the liturgy. Simply return to the use of the traditional Canon of the Mass (Rite I). This would bring the OF closer to the TLM and still retain the vernacular. Of course thsi would also require the new English translation that corrects several errors in the old translation. Just a thought.

 

[Lycorth]

One thing to consider here might be that the translation in the missal could be fairly workman-like, compared to what you might want for actual use. Since what is in the missal is just to help the person who is at a Latin Mass, it’s sound and beauty is not so important, just it’s accuracy. But for actual use, how it sounds and rolls off the tongue would be factors.

Yes; I’m forced to hold off on recommending the missal’s Latin translation any further until I am able to attend a TLM and see for myself.

However, it does strike me as being authoritative, especially since Traditionalist groups use them for Mass.

And then we could also have round two of a New Mass. Can we go through that again?

We will have Round Two of universal Mass changes eventually, if our hopes for the universal restoration of the TLM come to pass.

It’s not whether or not there is a liturgical upheaval, but whether or not it is for the better and for the restoration of tradition. I’d certainly take a vernacular Traditional Mass any day in place of the Paul VI liturgy. Eventually, the people are going to have to adjust.

Remember, he who controls the language (even if inserting a Latin phrase in the Mass), he controls the theology. The Pope might get the best translator in the world but who will make anything from the translation 500 years from now?

Hopefully, in that sort of time, the TLM will already be firmly back in place, universally, and there will be no need to speculate.

Part of why I am bringing this topic up is to help encourage Catholics towards the Traditional Mass, even the vernacular acceptance of which would inevitably spark interest in the TLM and from there, restoration of the TLM.

It’s more than just a preference for whether it’s in Latin or French.

Oh, I know that. The liturgical advantages of Latin speak for themselves.

But, it’s more than just the restoration of Latin - it’s the restoration of the superior form of the Mass codified at Trent. Every last rubric, every last discipline, every last adornment; it all needs to come back, and if it must be brought in pieces, then at least it will be brought back.

I think that it is a really bad idea, since it would essentially create 3 versions for Mass. A transition to Latin from that point would be less likely in my opinion.

I’m speaking of a vernacular Traditional Mass to replace the Paul VI Mass, not be added alongside it. Yes, I know, it’s all just speculation, which is why I’m just asking for folks’ opinions on a Traditional Mass in the vernacular.

Rather than being redundant, I’ll simply refer to a [post=6468988]post[/post] I made in a [thread=436106]thread[/thread] in another forum. Seems to me it bears here equally.

A fine post; indeed, the reformers certainly had an agenda to hammer home.

I have several missals and there are differences in the English. Some would have to decide on which one is closer to the Truth. If I had it my way, I’d get rid of all that English. (They’re only training wheels to me.) But I’m not the head of the Church so you can fall in love with whatever English you have to your heart’s content.

Ah, wasn’t aware of that. Certainly, any vernacular is problematic.

But, I’d much rather prefer problematic English with an otherwise Traditional Mass than problematic English with a problematic Mass form.

 

[Breviarylover]

I voted “yes”.

The Extraordinary Form is beautiful, if more people would come to it because its in English, would be great!

 

[Young_Thinker]

…All right, if you say so. Personally, I still have my doubts about this.

 

[ProVobis]

As I write this, there are more for Latin on the L&S forum. Granted that the question is worded a little differently here but how do you get a landslide for vernacular on the Traditional forum?

 

[Lycorth]

As I write this, there are more for Latin on the L&S forum. Granted that the question is worded a little differently here but how do you get a landslide for vernacular on the Traditional forum?

Because we want the Traditional Form of the Mass that badly, even if it is presented in the vernacular and especially if the rest of the Traditional Mass is kept intact (possibly excepting the music option I spoke about in my first post).

It’s all about support for the Traditional Mass, regardless of its language.

 

[Qoheleth]

When I first thought about the question I considered to vote yes but the more I really thought about it i decided to vote NO. First of all as stated somewhere else Latin is the official language of the Church. All official documents of the Church are also produced in Latin. The main advantage of using Latin is that it is a dead language and its meaning can not change over time as a living language does. Second this is the Universal Church and the beauty of using Latin for all services worldwide would make it possible to to travel anywhere worldwide to attend the same Mass and be on the same page as it were with everyone else regardless of language or ethnicity. I think that Latin could really be a unifying force for Catholics in general. When i think on it, when people have the convenience of having Mass in their native language rather than the UNIVERSAL language of the Universal Church it may have the tendency of separating us one from another without intending that to happen. I mean really, why have for instance a Spanish oriented Church or an Asian oriented Church etc.? We are commanded to “Love one another”, what better way to start doing that but to worship our Lord in the official language of His Church.

 

[Lycorth]

When I first thought about the question I considered to vote yes but the more I really thought about it i decided to vote NO. First of all as stated somewhere else Latin is the official language of the Church. All official documents of the Church are also produced in Latin. The main advantage of using Latin is that it is a dead language and its meaning can not change over time as a living language does. Second this is the Universal Church and the beauty of using Latin for all services worldwide would make it possible to to travel anywhere worldwide to attend the same Mass and be on the same page as it were with everyone else regardless of language or ethnicity. I think that Latin could really be a unifying force for Catholics in general. When i think on it, when people have the convenience of having Mass in their native language rather than the UNIVERSAL language of the Universal Church it may have the tendency of separating us one from another without intending that to happen. I mean really, why have for instance a Spanish Parish or an Asian Parish etc.? We are commanded to “Love one another”, what better way to start doing that but to worship our Lord in the official language of His Church.

I’m right behind you on all of that.

However, we already have Mass in the vernacular, and universally so. We already have Spanish parishes and Asian parishes and all the divide that has already come. Why not encourage the use of the Traditional Form of the Mass in the vernacular, then? Why the stripped-down and theologically vulnerable Mass of Paul VI?

Changes will happen, eventually, and in time people will have to adjust to a liturgical change, be it to the TLM or something else. If not the TLM, then why not the same Traditional Mass, only in the vernacular? At least until the TLM is fully and universally restored, that is.

The form of the Mass is the most important thing, is it not? Despite the very real advantages to Latin, why not advocate for at least the *Traditional Mass *in the vernacular? Even just reading the text of the Traditional Mass in the vernacular moves one to a sense of profound holiness.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I have several missals and there are differences in the English. Some would have to decide on which one is closer to the Truth. If I had it my way, I’d get rid of all that English. (They’re only training wheels to me.) But I’m not the head of the Church so you can fall in love with whatever English you have to your heart’s content.

It it not a love of the English Language here. The Latin is much more Beautiful, I would also like to say that I prefer the Latin and am also useing this as a training tool to lern the Latin. That said Christ spoke in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. I say these things to say this It is not the language that it is said in that matters, but the meassage that is conveyed,

I truely wish that the whole reform of the Mass had not Happened and that the EF was the only prodomiate Form in ue in the Latin Rite. This however is not the case. At this point the prayer IMHO should be to get it back in use in as many Parishes as possible as often as possible. If that means that I have to hear it celebrated in mostly English I will take what I can get. Then start the next battle to keep adding more and more Latin back.

 

[palmas85]

As I write this, there are more for Latin on the L&S forum. Granted that the question is worded a little differently here but how do you get a landslide for vernacular on the Traditional forum?

Probably for the same reasons you get a lot of posts here from progressives, charismatics and Eastern Church members. Some, I would say a lot, maybe even most of them have a certain,specific agenda, and the elimination of Latin is part of that agenda, along with other things. If they vote on this thread on this forum it skews the results.

Thats all it is. Kind of like a group of people getting together and voting hundreds of times each on Americas Best Dance Crew for their favorite crew.

As to the use of the vernacular I offer this as it was explained to me in catechism over fifty years ago. The Mass is in one language so that it unites everyone everywhere in the exact same thing. In essence you could go to Albania, Italy, England, Japan, the Philippines, United States, Vietnam and France as well as any where else in the world and immediately join in the Mass with absolutely no problem at all.

I myself did that as a young immigrant in the United States. I spoke no English except for a few choice nasty words that I had picked up, but I had been an Altar Boy, knew the responses, knew the prayers and the cues and I fit right in. Even without speaking hardly any English at all.

So I can say from an honest historical perspective having the Mass in Latin was a definite plus in the area of Church unity.

 

[mick321]

I’m right behind you on all of that.

However, we already have Mass in the vernacular, and universally so. We already have Spanish parishes and Asian parishes and all the divide that has already come. Why not encourage the use of the Traditional Form of the Mass in the vernacular, then? Why the stripped-down and theologically vulnerable Mass of Paul VI?

Changes will happen, eventually, and in time people will have to adjust to a liturgical change, be it to the TLM or something else. If not the TLM, then why not the same Traditional Mass, only in the vernacular? At least until the TLM is fully and universally restored, that is.

The form of the Mass is the most important thing, is it not? Despite the very real advantages to Latin, why not advocate for at least the *Traditional Mass *in the vernacular? Even just reading the text of the Traditional Mass in the vernacular moves one to a sense of profound holiness.

If those who regularly assist the Ordinary Form wish to change their liturgy over to a vernacular TLM, I will support their efforts to do so.

To strip the Extraordinary Form of the official language of the Catholic Church would be unsupportable.

 

[Montalo]

i would love it. it would give me, and others born post Vat II a chance to fully understand and get comfortable with the Mass. Like training wheels indeed

 

[Qoheleth]

I’m right behind you on all of that.

However, we already have Mass in the vernacular, and universally so. We already have Spanish parishes and Asian parishes and all the divide that has already come. Why not encourage the use of the Traditional Form of the Mass in the vernacular, then? Why the stripped-down and theologically vulnerable Mass of Paul VI?

Changes will happen, eventually, and in time people will have to adjust to a liturgical change, be it to the TLM or something else. If not the TLM, then why not the same Traditional Mass, only in the vernacular? At least until the TLM is fully and universally restored, that is.

The form of the Mass is the most important thing, is it not? Despite the very real advantages to Latin, why not advocate for at least the *Traditional Mass *in the vernacular? Even just reading the text of the Traditional Mass in the vernacular moves one to a sense of profound holiness.

So why accept the status quo?

Maybe we have drifted to far with all the vernacular. We all know we have many problems to take care of. Whatever helps tear down the wall between us at least ethnically speaking seems to me would point us in the right direction as a Church.

anyway just a thought…lol more like a fantasy

 

[Lycorth]

If those who regularly assist the Ordinary Form wish to change their liturgy over to a vernacular TLM, I will support their efforts to do so.

To strip the Extraordinary Form of the official language of the Catholic Church would be unsupportable.

Less beautiful - yes. Unsupportable - no.

So why accept the status quo?

Who said anything about that?

Maybe we have drifted to far with all the vernacular. We all know we have many problems to take care of. Whatever helps tear down the wall between us at least ethnically speaking seems to me would point us in the right direction as a Church.

anyway just a thought…lol more like a fantasy

Anything like my fantasy of seeing a vernacular Traditional Mass supplant the Mass of Paul VI prior to a full restoration of the TLM?

That’s why I’m even suggesting this. A vernacular Traditional Mass could easily, I think, tear down the walls that the vernacular-only, NO Mass-only atmosphere has built up between Catholics since the '70s. Like training wheels indeed, it will help a whole generation of Catholics see what the Traditional Mass is all about, in a language they can understand.

Making the final jump to Latin after all that has been accomplished ought to be a snap.

 

[Bluegoat]

I was thinking about this last night as I was going to sleep - goodness knows why. Anyway, I was thinking about the idea that translating the TLM into English, or any other language I suppose, would put it at the mercy of the translators.

But I am not sure that in most cases that is avoided anyway, and I say that as a person with three years of university Latin and as a person used to having at least part of the Mass in Latin since I became a Christian.

Most people who go to a Latin Mass regularly learn to understand it by looking at just such a translation. After a while, they usually get used to it enough that they can “think” it in their minds in the Latin. But they are still dependent on their understanding of their native language. When they hear “Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi” it doesn’t speak to them as if they were native Latin speakers with all of the nuances words in any language have. It carries the meaning of “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” and all the association they have with that as English speakers.

And this is even true of those who become reasonably competent in Latin - they see it always through an English filter. It is only the very few people that delve deeply that can overcome this, and then still not completely.

 

[Lycorth]

I was thinking about this last night as I was going to sleep - goodness knows why. Anyway, I was thinking about the idea that translating the TLM into English, or any other language I suppose, would put it at the mercy of the translators.

But I am not sure that in most cases that is avoided anyway, and I say that as a person with three years of university Latin and as a person used to having at least part of the Mass in Latin since I became a Christian.

Most people who go to a Latin Mass regularly learn to understand it by looking at just such a translation. After a while, they usually get used to it enough that they can “think” it in their minds in the Latin. But they are still dependent on their understanding of their native language. When they hear “Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi” it doesn’t speak to them as if they were native Latin speakers with all of the nuances words in any language have. It carries the meaning of “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” and all the association they have with that as English speakers.

And this is even true of those who become reasonably competent in Latin - they see it always through an English filter. It is only the very few people that delve deeply that can overcome this, and then still not completely.

A heck of an observation, one I had not considered.

On one hand, we all know how *Latin *is impervious to the evolutions of languages and in that sense has a distinctive advantage in that Latin itself cannot take on corrupted meanings. On the other hand, we cannot learn Latin today without translating it into our languages, or else we have no basis for understanding Latin to begin with.

Essentially, we always will have to rely on the vernacular to understand the Latin.

Certainly, I still want to see Latin restored to the common use it once enjoyed in the Church. But as for a Traditional Mass in the vernacular - we already have to rely on the vernacular just to learn Latin to begin with, and this goes for our Latin-English missals as well as the language in general. Given this, I see even less reason that the Traditional Mass should not be said in the vernacular as a replacement for the Mass of Paul VI and as a herald for the return of the TLM itself.

 

[Bluegoat]

On one hand, we all know how *Latin *is impervious to the evolutions of languages and in that sense has a distinctive advantage in that Latin itself cannot take on corrupted meanings. On the other hand, we cannot learn Latin today without translating it into our languages, or else we have no basis for understanding Latin to begin with.

There are occasionally additions to the language, like this. There is also a Latin version of Yellow Submarine out there somewhere, I heard it on the radio once but have never been able to track it down.

 

[mick321]

Originally Posted by mick321

If those who regularly assist the Ordinary Form wish to change their liturgy over to a vernacular TLM, I will support their efforts to do so.

To strip the Extraordinary Form of the official language of the Catholic Church would be unsupportable.

**Less beautiful - yes. Unsupportable - no. **

You seem to be in favor of removing the Latin language from the Traditional Latin Mass.

Surely you jest!

Less beautiful: Who cares?
Less Catholic: Yes.
Unsupportable: Unsupportable.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Originally Posted by mick321

If those who regularly assist the Ordinary Form wish to change their liturgy over to a vernacular TLM, I will support their efforts to do so.

To strip the Extraordinary Form of the official language of the Catholic Church would be unsupportable.

You seem to be in favor of removing the Latin language from the Traditional Latin Mass.

Surely you jest!

Less beautiful: Who cares?
Less Catholic: Yes.
Unsupportable: Unsupportable.

It I s not a matter of being infavor of removing The Latin. It is a matter of working on ways to more easily restore the Latin to those that have had little or no exposure.
The EF said in the venacular would more readily be able to little by llittle become fully Latin again.
At my parish, which is a OF only unfutunately, we we are now doing the Sanctus and the Angus Dei in Latin. This is a good move. Our Priest has also been giveing instruction during the Homily on foolowing the Rubrics correctly. These are good things. but it takes Time.
Falling into errors is easy and can happen with little or no effort. Correctling those errors is hard work takes a lot of time and effort. To be done correctly it must be done slowly a little by little.
There are numerus Catholics today with little or no exposure to the EF of the Mass, There are also numerus that have not been to an EF Mass in 40 or so years.
remember that most of us learn the Mass as children. from the Beginning this is what we are taught and it is a little at a time over the course of the first 8 to 10 years that we do so. These are also the years when learning is the easiest To expect Adults to change to something they do not know over night is not resonable. Even those who enter the Church through RCIA have had( in most cases) exposure to the Mass and a general isea of what is going on, even if they do not fully understand it. Then they have nearly a year of classes before coming into full communion with the Church.
Though it may seem now some 40 years later thet the Change to the NO Mass happened over night it did not it was a process. It will take that Process in reverse to bring the EF fully back.

totus pro palma of Deus

 

[GaryTaylor]

Without a doubt I firmly believe the Catholic Mass needs to be returned and restored in its entire form to exactly how it was before the changes that began to occur in the 60’s.

MOF I firmly believe the fate of Vatican and the Catholic Church and the Souls of so many depend on this. To me its not even a question of “if” we should. Its a question of “when”. This “is” going to happen. There is not a single doubt in my mind about this.

I’ve been to many many Catholic Churchs in this area aside from my own parish. Some of what I see is disturbing. What I have seen is not the point of this thread so I won’t go their. But I could tell you this. I’ve been attending the catholic church since before the changes occured in the 60’s. And some of what I see now? Mind Blowing I tell you and very unheathy to say the least.