Would you want Liturgical Dancers?

[Tantum_ergo]

<<The Mass belongs to everyone. It is Christ’s gift to all of us. It’s OUR Mass.>>

It is, and it isn’t.
Mass isn’t our “property”. It’s not some thing, some chattel, some personal thing we OWN.

The gift is Christ’s sacrifice, which is presented, in a non-bloody way, in the Mass.
There are places where liturgical dancing is permitted, and I’m sure that some of it can be beautiful and meaningful. . .

but in most places in the U.S., it would be invalid or illicit practices, no matter how “beautiful”, or “meaningful” it might be to some person.

We don’t judge our faith by our feelings alone. Many, many times our faith is deepened, not by the “highs”, but by the “lows”, the dryness, the “dark night of the soul”, or even just by the everyday, ORDINARY life we lead, humdrum, mundane, boring, predictable, routine though it may be.

Remember, the Mass “is” ALL-in-ALL. Whether a hymn is “beautiful” or “awful” has no effect on the intrinsic worth of the Mass itself, provided the hymn itself is liturgically valid.

And that goes for “liturgical dancing” as well, IMO.

 

[pittsburghjeff]

I am against dancing anywhere.

Unless someone is a professional ballerina or close to it, people just look really really silly out there wiggling their out of shape bodies to bad music.

 

[rosarydancer]

US Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy
usccb.org/liturgy/innews/803.htm
In the August 2003 BCL Newsletter…

Dance and the Liturgy
In the course of their meeting on June 17-18, 2003, the Bishop members, consultants, and advisors of the Committee on the Liturgy considered the question of dance and the Liturgy.

Recalling the recently revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), the Committee was conscious of the need to take “due regard for the nature and the particular circumstances of each liturgical assembly, [so that] the entire celebration is planned in such a way that it leads to a conscious, active, and full participation of the faithful both in body and in mind.” (GIRM, no. 18) Particular note was taken of the attention paid by the new Roman Missal to gestures and movements at the Mass, which “ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.” (GIRM, no. 42)

The “nature and the particular circumstances” (GIRM, no. 18) of certain ethnic communities was also considered, particularly by Catholic immigrants from Zaire, where dance has been approved as a part of the liturgical books of their native land. The importance of a careful observance of the rubrics of such books in regard to the quality and role of dance in the Sacred Liturgy was emphasized by several of the Bishops.

The place of dance in the liturgy in other parish Masses, however, was examined in the light of the 1975 “qualified and authoritative sketch” published by the Holy See in the journal Notitiae. The article prescribes that in western cultures, dance “cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind” and that when dances outside of the liturgy are envisioned, they may take place only “in assembly areas that are not strictly liturgical.”

Recalling the large number of liturgical issues before them and the fact that only a limited number can be adequately prepared for presentation to the Congregation at any given time, the Committee decided not to pursue the question further at this time. At the same time, the Committee cited the need for further scholarly studies of a “historical, anthropological, exegetical and theological” (Varietates legitimae, no. 30) nature which might explore forms of movement which might be found to serve as an appropriate part of processions, which do not take on the appearance of spectacle per se, and which accompany the liturgy, rather than interpret it.

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

You backed up the original statements…

Though they havent decided on how to address the issue… they DO reiterate…

Dance DOES infact take on a SPECTACLE and doesnt ACCOMPANY the Liturgy but attempts to INTERPRET (IT)

If I am watching YOU, I aint focused on the TABERNACLE… if I am watching YOU, I am not focused on the CRUCIFIX…

Dancing during the Mass is a form of personal prayer/reflection of someone else other than ME or other individuals…its likened to someone sitting next to us in the PEW and being AUDIBLE and allowing their private worship to become my business… we dont celebrate EACH OTHER… we COMMUNE to CELEBRATE the LORD… dancing for the Lord is a personal expression… and shouldnt be done during HIS MOMENT of Sacrifice.

It saddens me that people wanna take the focus off God during MASS and center it on them…ie…"hey, look at ME…I can dance…I’m dancing for the Lord…yea…ME…look how I express MY holiness! "

Your argument is at best based on a loophole that is being manipulated by certain Bishops.

Please understand, I aint condeming Dance as praise…AFTER MASS…when ALL the FOCUS is OFF JESUS during the Sacrifice…and communion…at THAT TIME…its ALL ABOUT HIM.

 

[mayra_hart]

when i go to mass i like to think about god and the holy sacrament i don’t want to see nobody dancing:tsktsk: . i leave dancing for the disco. i think that there is a right time an place for everything god bless

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Somebody asked was there dancing at the Last Supper. I think a better question would be was there dancing at Calvary? If you were at Calvary, at the foot of the Holy Cross, would dancing make your experience more meaningful?

 

[darcee]

rosarydancer,

Now what part of that article supports the idea of dancing in the Western Mass?

Most of us do not attend mass in Zaire nor are we parts of an immigrant community of the same.

-D

 

[Antonio_B]

pforrester:

I Went to th LA Congres last spring. I went to the “Hawaiian Mass”. I am a convert. My husband and son had gone to a mass in Africa the summer before and there was dancing and they said it was beautiful. So I was interested in a genuine cultural experience.

:bigyikes: What I got was two hours of quasi paganism. If my Protestant friends and family had seen that they would have been firmly convinced that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon after all–no matter what I had been telling them for five years.

A woman sat in the presidents chair the whole time. Beautiful young women and a few men danced the Hula several times on the altar in tight tops and midriff showing. But that was nothing.
I think it was the presentation of the gifts-- Four well-built young, shirtless men with oiled skin escorted a very rotund woman in a grass skirt and some sort of top that left her ample arms, oiled also, bare with a feathery headress two or three feet high.

I was ridiculous.:whacky: I have only been Catholic for 5 years. But there is no reason to be Catholic if you don’t believe the Pope and magesterium are worth obeying. Plus, the homily was booooooooring platitudes and mish mosh.:yawn:

That is precisely why when I go to the Congress I avoid the main liturgy 99% of the time. I certainly would not want an Eastern Orthodox Christian to witness such non-sense posing as the “Roman” rite.

Antonio

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

The Last Supper AND Calvary were ANYTHING but moments for breaking out in dance…they were quiet SOLEMN moments for reflection on Christs Sacrifice… thats what MASS is for…yes, we “celebrate” the Sacrifice…in REFLECTION and SOLEMNITY.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

rosarydancer:

The point was made: we are all welcome at the table. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place. The Mass belongs to everyone. It is Christ’s gift to all of us. It’s OUR Mass.

Firstly, it is not OUR Mass:
Inaestimabile Donum
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980
The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: "No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority."(8) And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."
(my emphasis added)
The Mass is the property of the Church, not just the faithful. The Magisterium ~ the teaching authority of the Church, instructs us and sets the guidelines.
Whose guidelines do you follow in liturgical dancing? For the faithful to tamper with the Church’s property is to vandalize it. The Mass isn’t mine or yours to change according to our aesthetic tastes or lack thereof, any more than we could walk into St. Peter’s and spray paint the pieta!
In fact, inserting liturgical dance is a much more grave offense than spray painting the pieta.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

The MASS is “OUR MASS” only in the sense that if we live in an apartment…its “our apartment” (Read us=Church)…but we DONT (OWN IT) the decisions of the building that make up that apartement (which we have a share in cause we live there…)is however SOLEY left up to the LANDLORD (Read: Magesterium)

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Which brings us to the 2nd and 3rd points:

Originally Posted by rosarydancer
*The point was made: we are all welcome at the table. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place. *

*The *
The Catholic Church observes a “closed table.” Not “everyone” is welcome at it.
This’ll evolve into a “many” vs. “all” argument. But if you’ve committed a grave sin and not properly confessed, performed your penance, and ammended your life, you may not approach the Lord’s “table” (altar); likewise if you haven’t observed a one-hour fast prior to the Mass, or are a non-Catholic.
All are welcome to attend Mass, if that is what you mean. But the Mass doesn’t belong to all in attendance, and should not be re-formed into whatever they wish it to be.

There wasn’t a dry eye in the place.

So? Perhaps God was weeping also. There is also great weeping and gnashing of teeth in Gehenna, from what I hear.

 

[Crusader]

rosarydancer:

Liturgical movement emphasized the beauty and power of the Eucharist at one of the most deeply memorable Masses I have ever attended. It was a Jubilee Mass. At the offertory, family and friends brought up the gifts and beaconed us all to join (metaphorically). They weren’t dancers: they were young and old, big, small, tall, awkward, and graceful. The point was made: we are all welcome at the table. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place. The Mass belongs to everyone. It is Christ’s gift to all of us. It’s OUR Mass.

The phrase “liturgical movement” is enough to make me physically ill. Just another way to get around the prohibited liturgical dance.

No, it’s not your Mass. It’s God’s Mass, and He has told us through the Church that we are not to add to it as we wish…

 

[rosarydancer]

Faithful 2 Rome:

The MASS is “OUR MASS” only in the sense that if we live in an apartment…its “our apartment” (Read us=Church)…but we DONT (OWN IT) the decisions of the building that make up that apartement (which we have a share in cause we live there…)is however SOLEY left up to the LANDLORD (Read: Magesterium)

Thank you, Faithful 2 Rome, for supporting my usage of “our Mass” and explaining it better than I could have. It was in response to your statement about “my Mass” (“Wanna dance? Go to the club on Friday or Saturday…leave your nasty bare feet and tom tom druns, etc… out of my MASS.”) that I used the term “our Mass.”

 

[francisca]

CatholicNerd:

Maybe if I belonged to a culture where dance is used as a means of expression… and since I’m not part of a culture like that, forget it.

Why not ?

Didn’t King David danced around the Ark ?

An SSPX friend of mine recently said that the presence of liturgical dancers just confirms his suspicions that Satan’s trying to turn the Mass into a giant nightclub, complete with a spiritual bartender, band, and dance floor. I’m almost inclined to agree. I can deal with Masses not said Ad Orientem (or even facing liturgical east, for crying out loud!), and I can deal with lousy music. But dancing? Hm… maybe if we told people there’s dancing at Mass they’d dress up… lol… Nah.

That SSPX friend of yours said that “satan is trying to…” is because he had satan speaking to him in his very own heart. Therefore “grudges” and bad news is what he told you.

Let me quote this :

2 Samuel 6:14-23
And David was DANCING before the Lord WITH ALL HIS MIGHT, and David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ARK of the LORD with SHOUTING and the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that MICHAL the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David LEAPING and DANCING before the LORD; and SHE DESPISED HIM IN HER HEART…
But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, “How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants’ maids as one of the FOOLISH ones SHAMELESSLY uncovers himself!” So David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel; therefore I will CELEBRATE before the LORD. “I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be HUMBLE in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished.” Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

There shall be no more “grudges” in celebrating The Lords presence. Ofcourse this is only true if you really believe in HIS REAL PRESENCE.

May God bless us all.

 

[RBushlow]

francisca:

Didn’t King David danced around the Ark?

More to the point, would you want dancing at Calvary?
That would be downright sacrilegious wouldn’t it?

 

[rosarydancer]

darcee:

Now what part of that article supports the idea of dancing in the Western Mass?
-D

The U.S. Bishops could have refused to review the topic, stating that the 1975 “qualified and authoritative sketch” published by the Holy See in the journal Notitiae was definitive. Instead, they cited the need for further scholarly studies of a “historical, anthropological, exegetical and theological” (Varietates legitimae, no. 30) nature which might explore forms of movement which might be found to serve as an appropriate part of processions . . . " The topic, they realized, needs further exploration.

Much has changed since 1975. It’s difficult to distinguish the “West” from the rest of the world as more and more non-western peoples immigrate to the U.S. and other western countries.

 

[rosarydancer]

pforrester:

I Went to th LA Congres last spring. I went to the “Hawaiian Mass”. I am a convert. My husband and son had gone to a mass in Africa the summer before and there was dancing and they said it was beautiful. So I was interested in a genuine cultural experience.

pforrester:
Could you tell us more about the Mass your husband and son went to and what made it so beautiful?

Maybe we need to look at our definition of dance or liturgical movement. There are huge ranges and variations.

 

[TradCatholic]

RBushlow:

More to the point, would you want dancing at Calvary?
That would be downright sacrilegious wouldn’t it?

Amen. This is the point exactly.

 

[francisca]

RBushlow:

More to the point, would you want dancing at Calvary?
That would be downright sacrilegious wouldn’t it?

Ofcourse I would not dance in the Calvary. Yet I am not in the Calvary. Rather, Jesus is ALIVE in me.

He has risen my friend!