Wouldn't it be so much better if everyone was able to know the true religion?

[planten]

I think you must use both, the head and the heart

God is spirit, so you must understand Him in spirit, also God is intelligence so you must use your intelligence

When I asked myself : am I in the right path ? is Roman Catholic the right path ?

I made for me a list of questions, I have read apologetics and all type of theological articles, I have read all the responses form Religion X thru Religion Y

The only one that satisfied me full, without any doubt, was RCC

** Delta you have done well. If you are peaceful person then all is well with you Very good. Islam also means that one should learn, investigate, understand and use his intelligence. And be absolutely peaceful.

I can produce many verses from the Quran that Allah exhorts every one to use their faculties of wisdom and intelligence. So you have done that. That is good for you. Rest assured that you are on the right line. Keep it up.**

 

[MH84]

Maybe you should comment on the rest of it then. There is a reason we have what we call the Old Testament and a New Testament.

Please pick any verse in the Koran that puts Islam in a good light and any verse in the Gospels that puts Chrsitianity in a bad light. Give the context for each. The Old Testament is no different because it is the same God.

The Qur’an qualifies nearly everything between Muslim and non-Muslim when it speaks of violence, compassion and charity.

The Old Testament is very specific to the Jews as a people for a reason.

So God allowed Jews to do those things in the OT but not in NT? Why?

I don’t know enough about the Quran to pluck out verses. But its fairly obvious that youve been visiting anti-Islam sites to gather your material.

We all know the Gospels speak of peace. The OT and the remainder of the NT do as well. But there are parts in the OT that sound similar to those verses you lucked out of the Quran.

Often though, it must be remembered that the violent and perhaps harsh pronouncements were spoken by Moses or Joshua etc, and not from God Himself. But then again, somethimes those men were speaking on behalf of God. God in the OT was a loving, but correcting Father.

Verisimilitude, technically speaking if God allowed David and perhaps Solomon to be inspired writers of the scriptures (and David to be a prophet), why couldn’t Muhammed be a prophet? I mean David did some bad things too, like allow the husband of Bathsheba, who he committed adultery, with to be killed.

 

[Valke2]

Major contradictions you refuse to see. Moses killed a single Egyptian in defense of another person before being called by God, but was denied entering the promised land.

That is not why God denied him entrance into the promised land. Deu. 32.51 – “For you both broke faith with Me among the Israelite people, at the Waters of Meribath-kadesh in the wilderness of Zin, by failing to uphold My sanctity among the Isralite people.”

 

[planten]

Jesus or the apostles never said that a prophet like Muhammed would come. You don’t know if those words in the Quran are from God or not.

You are relying on more faith in the Quran than a Christian does from the Bible. But then again, that’s my opinion.

**belief is always something unseen. You have not seen Jesus or any angel or the writer of the bible. But you believed it. Similarly, the Muslims have not seen Muhammad or the angel that brought messages to him. But it was nothing new. The coming of the angel has been recorded in the earlier scriptures.

We have not seen the words coming from God. But that is the best thing. We believe it to be true. That is called belief. There is no use of any belief in God or angels if we can see them. The belief needs some kind of secrecy. i.e. the matter should be unseen. That will give some reward.

If on the other hand, i beleive in a sheep or goat !! What reward will there for me?? Bible is right and so is Jesus and so is Quran. There is no conflict or dispute. Please understand that the news of the next one to come is never given in such a way that his name and his fathers name and his place of birth be told.

That is never done. The name of Jesus or his mother or his father was never told in any book. The name of the one coming in lieu of Alias was never told that John (the baptist) will come in his place.

Similarly, Jesus never had to tell the name of Muhammad to any one. He spoke in parables. He told and gave the good news about some one who will come and lead people to all truth. That he will hear and speak and will guide people to all truth. That was enough good news for any one to understand and use their intelligence.**

 

[Righteousone]

Asked and answered.

John 18:37
Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, " You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John 18:38
Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, " I find no guilt in Him.

Exactly…I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM.

 

[inJESUS]

MH84,

ever thought about satan? why do you think he is doing?

 

[Verisimilitude]

So God allowed Jews to do those things in the OT but not in NT? Why?

Because God chose a people to do His will. I think of the time between Abraham and Jesus as the furnace in which God purified the Jews that allowed Christ to enter the world through Mary.

I don’t know enough about the Quran to pluck out verses. But its fairly obvious that youve been visiting anti-Islam sites to gather your material.

How obvious? I do not visit anti-Islam sites. I have read the Koran twice and a number of commentaries long before joining CAF.
Is this anti-Islamic: searchtruth.com/

I use this to quote Scripture when I don’t want to type it: biblegateway.com/passage/

We all know the Gospels speak of peace. The OT and the remainder of the NT do as well. But there are parts in the OT that sound similar to those verses you lucked out of the Quran.

Picking out such verses in the Koran is like shooting fish in a barrel. Watch this?

Often though, it must be remembered that the violent and perhaps harsh pronouncements were spoken by Moses or Joshua etc, and not from God Himself. But then again, somethimes those men were speaking on behalf of God. God in the OT was a loving, but correcting Father.

Are you familiar with the story of Job?

Verisimilitude, technically speaking if God allowed David and perhaps Solomon to be inspired writers of the scriptures (and David to be a prophet), why couldn’t Muhammed be a prophet? I mean David did some bad things too, like allow the husband of Bathsheba, who he committed adultery, with to be killed.

As far as I know David is not considered a Prophet by anyone other than Muslims as all OT books are not prophesies. Mohammed is not a prophet for reasons other than his character, not the least of which he is not Jewish and came after Christ who ended the need for Jewish prophets.

 

[hamba2han]

Major contradictions you refuse to see. Moses killed a single Egyptian in defense of another person before being called by God, but was denied entering the promised land. David killed in gaining the promised land but was denied the honor of building the Temple. Most other legitiate prophets did not kill anyone. Jesus did not kill anyone.

Mohammed killed for revenge as well as offensive war.

There is just cause to see major wrongdoing in Mohammed. Jesus spoke often of the heart:
Matthew 5:8
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matthew 11:29
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Mark 7:21
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mark 11:23
" Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him.
John 14:27
" Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
John 16:22
"Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.

The god and messenger of Islam also spoke of the heart:
In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #10)
Allah will not call you to account for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will call you to account for that which your hearts have earned. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Forbearing.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #225)
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #151)

Prophet Moses (pbuh) waged Jihad to punish people who were guilty of deliberately denying the truth. A study of the Old Testament shows that the Jihad he waged was of two forms. One form of Jihad was that nations who subscribed to polytheism were to be put to death in all cases, while another form was that some nations were spared in case they agreed to remain subservient.

The following verses depict the first form of Jihad:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. … (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

The following verses depict the second form of Jihad:

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, and children, the livestock and everything else in the city you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. … (Deuteronomy, 20:10-15)

A Prophet Like Unto Moses

Also, in the Bible, in Deutoronomy, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that He would raise up a prophet from AMONG THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES, like Moses.

"And the Lord said onto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." … (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

And so then,

Did Jesus (pbuh) condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad as practiced by Moses (pbuh)?

If you say ‘YES’, then this alone would disqualify him from being the promised “Prophet like unto Moses”, don’t you agree?

I mean, how on earth can Jesus (pbuh) be the one who is referred to as the “Prophet like unto Moses” in Deuteronomy 18:17-18, as it is totally inconceivable that God will send a new Prophet who will condemn and dissociate himself from the divine commands given to an earlier Prophet as written in the Bible?

 

[Verisimilitude]

That is not why God denied him entrance into the promised land. Deu. 32.51 – “For you both broke faith with Me among the Israelite people, at the Waters of Meribath-kadesh in the wilderness of Zin, by failing to uphold My sanctity among the Isralite people.”

I didn’t intend to suggest it was the reason though your clarification is welcome. hamaba2han suggested the actions of Mohammed i.e. killing, was the same as those in the OT. I disagree.

As I understand it God accepted the purity of the animal sacrifice for expiation of sin. He preferred Able’s offering to Cains and up until it’s destruction in 70 AD it was practiced in Jerusalem by Jews alone for Jews alone for 1000 years with a few interruptions and a rebuilding.

God demanded sacrifice of Abraham with Isaac, and Moses, David, Solomon…all honored their pact with God with notable exceptions. I think most killing in the name of God is very limited to gain and hold the promised land. God if anything is a realist. Intention is everything. There is just as much if not more recorded of the killing and subjugation of the Jews in the OT.

Jews were not noted to be expansionist or evangelical particularly in the sense of converting others by force or fair means to their way of thinking regarding God. I will not call what the Lord has commanded them unjust for those reasons stated and limited to the Jews at that time. I think modern Israel should reflect ancient Israel borders but that might be another topic.

Christ changed a lot of things but not who God is. There is no NT command that calls for justified killing or violence in His name. Those who do so are wrong. Two swords is not a call to war. Shake the dust and move on. Take it or leave it.

Mohammed/Islam is an expantionst and eveangelical ideology. It takes a mythical OT warrior-god mentality with the purpose to spread it by fair means or foul. Take it or else.

Mohammed in no way compares to past Jewish prophets in word, deed or intent.

 

[Catherine_S]

Did Jesus (pbuh) condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad as practiced by Moses (pbuh)?

If you say ‘YES’, then this alone would disqualify him from being the promised “Prophet like unto Moses”, don’t you agree?

I mean, how on earth can Jesus (pbuh) be the one who is referred to as the “Prophet like unto Moses” in Deuteronomy 18:17-18, as it is totally inconceivable that God will send a new Prophet who will condemn and dissociate himself from the divine commands given to an earlier Prophet as written in the Bible?

Jesus Christ was not* just another** Prophet He was God and man!
He was challenged in the same way you challenge now…
Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him and He sat down and taught them.
The Scribes and Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and placing her in the midst of them they said to Him " Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such". “What do you say about her ?”
This they said to test Him, that they might have some* charge to bring against him.
Jesus Christ bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, He stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard this, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the women standing before Him. Jesus looked up and said to her " women where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said “No one, Lord”. And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.” John8: 2-20)

Jesus Christ brings the law to its fullness. He is teaching the reason behind the law. Humans are now to move past the law…to bare the fruit of the law… which is love! Compassion.
Did He break the Law or point us towards the reason behind the Law in the first place.
He pointed them to the reason for the law because He was God and knew His full* intention** for the laws.*
A prophet can not do this but God can and did!!
Head(Law)* +** Heart(Love Compassion) = Good News! New Covenant with man*!!** Salvation from the sin of Adam and Eve!!
One God (Spirit-no physicality)+One Jesus **** = :bowdown: Emmanuel (God with us)

.
.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Prophet Moses (pbuh) waged Jihad to punish people who were guilty of deliberately denying the truth. A study of the Old Testament shows that the Jihad he waged was of two forms. One form of Jihad was that nations who subscribed to polytheism were to be put to death in all cases, while another form was that some nations were spared in case they agreed to remain subservient.

No. The commands were specific to the land God promised them when they first entered.

The following verses depict the first form of Jihad:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … … (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

The killing was limited to Israel- not the world.

The following verses depict the second form of Jihad:

…This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. … (Deuteronomy, 20:10-15)

A Prophet Like Unto Moses

No, nothing like Moses. Valke2 might better argue these points.

Also, in the Bible, in Deutoronomy, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that He would raise up a prophet from AMONG THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES, like Moses.

"And the Lord said onto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." … (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

I think it’s safe to conclude he’s not talking about Muhammed since he is not of the brethern.

The rest of that verse does though:
21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

And so then,

Did Jesus (pbuh) condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad as practiced by Moses (pbuh)?

If you say ‘YES’, then this alone would disqualify him from being the promised “Prophet like unto Moses”, don’t you agree?

If you misunderstand Moses, you will misunderstand Christ.

I mean, how on earth can Jesus (pbuh) be the one who is referred to as the “Prophet like unto Moses” in Deuteronomy 18:17-18, as it is totally inconceivable that God will send a new Prophet who will condemn and dissociate himself from the divine commands given to an earlier Prophet as written in the Bible?

You look at Moses actions not what Jews look at him for: the Law. Moses brought the Law to the Children of Israel. Christ is and lived the Law. Christ did not condemn it, He fullfilled it.

 

[planten]

A good question from hamba2han…

And so then,
Did Jesus (pbuh) condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad as practiced by Moses (pbuh)?

If you say ‘YES’, then this alone would disqualify him from being the promised “Prophet like unto Moses”, don’t you agree?

**If Jesus condemned the Jihadist attitude of Moses then he is not the like of Moses a.s.

If Jesus did not condemn that Jihadist attitude then Jesus was a Jihadist too.
Some christian should explain and make Jesus anti-Jihad anti-Moses person or make him a Jihadist like Moses a.s. Thanks.
**

 

[planten]

That is not why God denied him entrance into the promised land. Deu. 32.51 – “For you both broke faith with Me among the Israelite people, at the Waters of Meribath-kadesh in the wilderness of Zin, by failing to uphold My sanctity among the Isralite people.”

**This subject of Moses not entering into the promised land is well described in the Quran chapter 5, verses 19 onward: Please read:

[5:19] O People of the Book! there indeed has come to you Our Messenger, after a break in the series of Messengers, who makes things clear to you lest you should say, ‘There has come to us no bearer of glad tidings and no Warner.’ So a bearer of glad tidings and a warner has indeed come to you. And Allah has power over all things.
[5:20] And remember when Moses said to his people, 'O my people, call to mind Allah’s favour upon you when He raised Prophets among you and made you kings, and gave you what He gave not to any other among the peoples;
[5:21] ‘O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has ordained for you and do not turn back, for then you will return as losers.’
[5:22] They said, ‘O Moses, there is in that land an unruly and powerful people, and we shall not enter it until they go forth from it, but if they go forth from it, then we will enter it.’
[5:23] Thereupon two men from among those who feared their Lord, on whom Allah has conferred His special favour, said ‘Enter the gate advancing against them; when once you have entered it, then surely you will be victorious. And put your trust in Allah, if you are believers.’
[5:24] They said, ‘O Moses, we will never enter it, so long as they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight, and here we sit.’
[5:25] He said, ‘My Lord, I have no control except over myself and my brother, therefore distinguish Thou between us and the rebellious people.’
[5:26] God said: 'Verily it shall be forbidden to them for forty years; in distraction shall they wander through the land. So grieve not over the rebellious people.**

The same story is mentioned in the OT too. The Jews failed to advance into the promised land for fear of the Palestinians. Moses is calling his people “Rebellious people”. And Moses told Allah that he had no hold on his people who had refused the orders.

So Allah forbade, not Moses a.s., but the Israelis generation from entering Palestine. Moses had to be with them. He could not go alone. He could not enter alone. So that is the mistake of the people, not Moses a.s.

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by Verisimilitude
Asked and answered.

John 18:37
Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, " You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

**That is not the words of jesus. A great change has been made in the actual previous wording of the bbile. As I had read it, Jesus said to Pilate “You say I am”. He did not say " You say correctly that i am a king…".

These are the problems with the christians. They do not have any standard text of the bible. That is their self made bible being amended every day to suit their own wishes. In Mark 15 verses 2 onward, it is written “Thou sayest I am”. But the words are being changed everyday. That amendment to the words of God are bad. Do the words of God need to be amended and improved? How can any one trust the bible now?**

 

[Valke2]

**This subject of Moses not entering into the promised land is well described in the Quran chapter 5, verses 19 onward: Please read:

[5:19]

So Allah forbade, not Moses a.s., but the Israelis generation from entering Palestine. Moses had to be with them. He could not go alone. He could not enter alone. So that is the mistake of the people, not Moses a.s.**

In our Torah, it is true God prohibits the generation from entering the promised land. But Moses would have been allowed. After all, God allows Joshua and one other to enter. The Torah expressly states why Moses wasn’t allowed. His behavior in bringing forth water for the people.

 

[wisdomseeker]

“Anyone who welcomes one little child like this in my name welcomes me. but anyone who is the downfall of one of these little ones who have faith in me would be better drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone round his neck.”

Also please read the parable of the wicked tenants. Matt. 21:33

this should explain somethings.

Parable of the dragnet. Matt.13:47

why Jesus speaks in Parables?

It is up to us to find the Kingdom of God. to search for it. God will show us if our desires is sincere and we are not just looking for something to fulfill our own desires. remember obedience is the key. if you are rebellious and have no humility things will not be right. make no mistake about it God knows the hearts of mem.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Why dont you try and open up your mind to some logic and reason. islam and christianity try to scare you into believing what they believe is right by using teachings of hell and eternal torture. there are so many religions on earth buddism, hinduism, shintoism, mormonism, the list goes on and they all have the same amount of evidence as each other, none.

The greatest lesson you can learn from christianity is that ALL men are greedy, evil, selfish, and liars to a degree. Dont put your trust in men EVER! When people put 100 percent trust in the words of dictators, governments, religions they lose there ability to think for themselves and ask questions. Dont believe anything that was written by men including the bible the torah or the quaran , wake up and think for yourself. Humans have the greatest gift of all we have the ability to ask questions and be skeptical about everything around us, dont throw that away for a religion, please.

 

[hamba2han]

… Humans have the greatest gift of all we have the ability to ask questions and be skeptical about everything around us, dont throw that away for a religion, please.

A gift from Who??

When we want to show our appreciation to our Creator, what is the absolutely best way in which to do it?

Do we worship our Creator in a way which pleases us… or… do we do it in a way which actually pleases the Creator?

This is where religion comes into the picture for without it and in particular, the teachings of the Prophets (pbut) throughout human history, the creations would not have a clue as to the correct and proper way to worship and show gratitude to their Creator.

 

[planten]

In our Torah, it is true God prohibits the generation from entering the promised land. But Moses would have been allowed. After all, God allows Joshua and one other to enter. The Torah expressly states why Moses wasn’t allowed. His behavior in bringing forth water for the people.

** In the Quran too God prohibited the generation and not Moses only. In your version, you are blaming Moses for nothing. The incident of the refusal of the Israelis to advance into the promised land is also cited in the bible OT. that is exactly the same as in the Quran and that is good enough and quite seriuos.

It is wrong to blame Moses for smiting the rock and not speaking to the rock. that is a very weak made up point. It has no Juice.**

 

[MH84]

As far as I know David is not considered a Prophet by anyone other than Muslims as all OT books are not prophesies.

The book of Psalms contained prophecies about Christ. So, I think Christians called David a prophet too. Im sure you already knew that (about the Psalms) as a Christian, so what do mean by this?: “As far as I know David is not considered a Prophet by anyone other than Muslims…”.