Wow....... I never imagined

[Balance]

Welcome back home! I don’t know if your experience is, or will be, similar to mine, but I struggled along for a year or two after coming back to Christ and to the Church before I found my feet and settled in, so hang in there. It all comes back to prayer, of course - I find that questions like this cease bugging me when I give more time to God in prayer.

this article has some good points:
“Beyond Labels”
ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/archive/arc012504.html

Ok, now here I am, a member of this forum, and I now see that Vatican II and it’s results are of great concern for a lot of Catholics.

But the orthodox Catholic view is that Vatican II was a work of the Holy Spirit. Remember always to separate VII (the fresh air of the Spirit blowing through the Church) with some things that are less than ideal which have happened in the years since.

Especially traditional Catholics. I’m left wondering what I am… a traditional Catholic, a liberal Catholic, or just a Catholic.

Just a Catholic! A child of God.

So, the point of my rambling is this… BESIDES the preference of TM over NO, what makes one a traditional Catholic ?

I don’t know - I never get an answer that makes sense when I ask that question either.

But also, I’m struggling with whether or not I should concern myself with this “traditional Catholic” title.

You needn’t concern yourself with that title at all - just “Catholic” will do!

… or am I just nuts ?

Nope, you’re not nuts - although if you spend too much time in this particular sub-forum you might go nuts.

Don’t believe everything you read in here, is my point. Read it critically, ask what is at the guts of what a person is saying, ask if it’s coming from a particular ideology or not.

Especially don’t be sucked into this negative “I’m this and you’re that,” “us and them,” “we faithful few against the heretical hordes” mentality which is just so much BS. I always wonder what, exactly, those who loudly label themselves “traditional,” are rejecting. That’s key.

Just live the Chirstian life - if you’re always seeking to follow Christ, and be like him, and simply love him and the people around you as each day requires, you’ll find that ideas of categories and labels will be of less and less concern to you.

 

[I_Believe]

You’re a Conservative Catholic. Conservatives tend to accept everything that comes from Rome. Liberals tend to see the Church as moving from the poor theological understanding of the past to modern enlightenment, whilst Traditionalists would oppose Vatican II except that, as you mention, there is this problem of climing to be traditional whilst not obeying the Papacy. So traditionalists find various ways of resolving that.

Conservative Catholicism is a safe thing to be. You are not going to go too far wrong by agreeing with the Pope. The central problem is that you are also not contributing to the Church’s process of discernment, unless you happen to arrive at the same conclusions as the Pope through a process of independent thought, which is unlikely.

Hi Malcolm, Your reply is comforting in it’s assessment of me ( I can live with that), and helpful in understanding liberals and trads.
Thanks.

Regarding your last sentence, I’m not sure what you mean. Unlikey because of what ? Lack of education and experience ?

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

Hi Balance, thanks. I added the link to my favs. I’ll check it out before work this afternoon. I just got off work at 2 this morning and I’m about to fall asleep at the keyboard

I did get woke up by what you said…“Nope, you’re not nuts - although if you spend too much time in this particular sub-forum you might go nuts.”… lol, I almost spewed Coke Zero all over my monitor !!!

Anyhow, I see what you are saying about Vatican II itself vs what happened here and there since. Clarifies it a bit. Thanks.
You hit on a key point I’d certainly make in certain discussions, I’m sure. The Holy Spirit’s hand in all this.
Society, heck, the whole world, was changing in the 50’s. Hard to think the Vatican could ignore it.

I suppose I’ll take the unanimous advice here and just be a Catholic. There is so much to learn and do. Prayer, devotions, classic titles I need to read. St Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle looks interesting.

I’m beginning to ramble, so, thanks again Balance. 'preciate your thoughts

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

These are the biggies. All the other stuff is miniscule.

You are a hard core Catholic.

Congratulations!!!

Thanks Mark

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

You are a Catholic! It is out of my place to say this but I’ve always believed that Catholics who disagree with a particular teaching or tradition (like the Church’s stand on abortion, birth control, premarital sex, etc) should look for another church to attend (unless one was totally ignorant, finds the truth, and changes their ways).

Hi MidnightSun, sounds like something my father might have said He would probably never tell anyone that, but I can see him thinking it !

Anyhow, Thanks

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

Hi batteddy, thanks for your thoughts/answers to a couple of my questions. They were helpful.

I really need to read all I can about Church history before I can discuss things like the Church’s view of the world before the late 50’s. But regarding the 260 Popes who didn’t cozy up to the modern world … did they have a modern world to cozy up to ?
Not to argue, I just feel it would have been hard to ignore the way the world was changing so fast beginning in the 50’s. Again, I’m not sure what was going on in Catholic parishes during these years. Was attendance falling ? Were the youth losing the faith/leaving the church ? Perhaps the Vatican felt it HAD to do something ?

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

Hi Balance, thanks. I added the link to my favs. I’ll check it out before work this afternoon. I just got off work at 2 this morning and I’m about to fall asleep at the keyboard

I did get woke up by what you said…“Nope, you’re not nuts - although if you spend too much time in this particular sub-forum you might go nuts.”… lol, I almost spewed Coke Zero all over my monitor !!!

Anyhow, I see what you are saying about Vatican II itself vs what happened here and there since. Clarifies it a bit. Thanks.
You hit on a key point I’d certainly make in certain discussions, I’m sure. The Holy Spirit’s hand in all this.
Society, heck, the whole world, was changing in the 50’s. Hard to think the Vatican could ignore it.

I suppose I’ll take the unanimous advice here and just be a Catholic. There is so much to learn and do. Prayer, devotions, classic titles I need to read. St Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle looks interesting.

I’m beginning to ramble, so, thanks again Balance. 'preciate your thoughts

Charles

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Hi Malcolm, Your reply is comforting in it’s assessment of me ( I can live with that), and helpful in understanding liberals and trads.
Thanks.

Regarding your last sentence, I’m not sure what you mean. Unlikey because of what ? Lack of education and experience ?

Charles

Lets say you go away, like Jesus did when He fasted in the wilderness, and shut yourself off for a period of time to settle your ideas. Let’s also say that when you come out of the wilderness you find that you agree with the Pope on every single detail, including matters of dogma you had never heard of. That would be a miracle.

What is more likely is that you largely agree with the Pope, but partly you differ, and where you differ it is not that you are just plain wrong, but you are wrong in an interesting way. That is how the Church goes through its process of discernment. It is not necessary to be an intellectual to be a good Catholic, but if you do have intellectual ability it is necessary to use it if you are going to offer your skills to Christ. Disagreement is an entirely different thing to disobedience, though disobedience it is often confused with it.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Yes, that’s my parish

Now let’s see, the only one who could possibly know me from my post is… Fr. H ?

Charles

I was just playing with you. I don’t really know you, I just recognized the Church you were referring to. I go there for confession every few weeks.

I usually attend St. Martin’s on Broadway (pretty close to St. Louis Bertrand.) I attend the Traditional Mass. Both Churches have a pretty good reputation in the area.

You ought to try the Traditional Mass at St. Martin’s on Broadway sometime. It startes at 12:30PM. You’ll hear the Traditional Mass talked about a lot on these boards. Your fortunate to have a good one nearby. Try to make it this Sunday. We’d love to have you come visit.

louisville-catholic.net/

 

[I_Believe]

I was just playing with you. I don’t really know you, I just recognized the Church you were referring to. I go there for confession every few weeks.

I usually attend St. Martin’s on Broadway (pretty close to St. Louis Bertrand.) I attend the Traditional Mass. Both Churches have a pretty good reputation in the area.

You ought to try the Traditional Mass at St. Martin’s on Broadway sometime. It startes at 12:30PM. You’ll hear the Traditional Mass talked about a lot on these boards. Your fortunate to have a good one nearby. Try to make it this Sunday. We’d love to have you come visit.

louisville-catholic.net/

Ha, had me going there ! I’ve been to a few noon weekday Masses at St Martin. The parish has quite a history. I like St Martins, and it was one of the two I had narrowed it down to. I chose St Louis Bertrand because it is a 10 minute drive versus 20 minutes to St Martin. As one who attends weekday Mass, a 20 minute round trip instead of 40 seemed the way to go.

But yes, one thing that struck me about St Martin is the first time I attended a weekday Mass, two people took time to make me feel welcome after Mass. Just brief gestures of kindness, but something I hadn’t seen at the other parishes I was checking out.

I’ve been meaning to attend the latin Mass on Sunday there, and I may do so this Sunday.

A quick question I have …
After my father passed away, I found several Church related things that were his and my grandmothers. One of the things was a missal insert titled Approved Text For The Ordinary Parts Of The Mass Pertaining To The People (Approved by the National Conference of Bishops of U.S. April 2, 1964)
Does the St Martin LTM use these parts, or an earlier version ?

No matter really, I’d just like to know. I do a little ritual to prepare for Mass before I leave home … read the day’s readings, etc.

Take care, and thanks for the invitation

Charles

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

A quick question I have …
After my father passed away, I found several Church related things that were his and my grandmothers. One of the things was a missal insert titled Approved Text For The Ordinary Parts Of The Mass Pertaining To The People (Approved by the National Conference of Bishops of U.S. April 2, 1964)
Does the St Martin LTM use these parts, or an earlier version ?

That should be the one that is used at St. Martins. There was a revision in 1965. Since yours is dated 1964, it is probably the same.

 

[rtconstant]

Hey welcome home! St. Louis Bertrand eh? That is a beautiful Church. I lived in Louisville for 25 years St. Louis, St. James (in the Highlands) and St. Martin’s (on Chestnut if I remember) were all gorgeous.

 

[batteddy]

But regarding the 260 Popes who didn’t cozy up to the modern world … did they have a modern world to cozy up to ?

Some of them did. Depends how you define “modern,” but either way there were many Popes who didn’t. Even in our century, half the popes didn’t. And defining the “early modern period” as transitioning at the Renaissance, certainly many Popes didn’t give into the zeitgeists of the age. I am certainly NOT claiming that the Church is tied to any particular age of history or accidents of culture…but the Medieval has always been something of the Catholic ideal. Christendom. Some would call it the Millenium, between Roman persecutions and decadence, and the Reformation. But of course, His saints find persecution in any age.

Not to argue, I just feel it would have been hard to ignore the way the world was changing so fast beginning in the 50’s.

They didn’t have to ignore. But they could have reacted in the OPPOSITE way, reaffirming Catholic tradition, not sort of “adapting” it. At Trent, the Counter Reformation re-emphasized what was different between us and the heretics. At the First Vatican council, the Church rallied around what was perennially and uniquely Catholic to stand against the new revolutionary political and social order in Europe. Then at Vatican II, we decided to basically conform to modern sentiment, emphasizing what we had in common with the heretics and pagans!!! There is no need to address what we have in common, as that is already a given. The councils had always emphasized how the True Faith was* different *from error, not what points we had in common (which was never an issue…)

Again, I’m not sure what was going on in Catholic parishes during these years. Was attendance falling ? Were the youth losing the faith/leaving the church ? Perhaps the Vatican felt it HAD to do something ?

Perhaps. But again. Why did it do THAT something (cozying up to the modern world) instead of doing the opposite (getting more militant and contrary)???

Attendance fell. Vatican II or not. Do you really think that it would be even less (80% of American “Catholics” dont attend weekly Sunday mass) if they had kept their strictness, their powerful psychological connection? Don’t mess with a working formula I say. And if attendance falls…is that their only goal, to keep the numbers up?

The modern times have been an incredible wave of evil. Taking on forms hardly imaginable in the past, extremely subtle and subversive at times, and on such a wide scale. The transformation is total. And yet, did the Church do anything to stop it. No, they sort of put up some weak protests but then got on the bandwagon…with gusto it appears at times…

 

[I_Believe]

Lets say you go away, like Jesus did when He fasted in the wilderness, and shut yourself off for a period of time to settle your ideas. Let’s also say that when you come out of the wilderness you find that you agree with the Pope on every single detail, including matters of dogma you had never heard of. That would be a miracle.

What is more likely is that you largely agree with the Pope, but partly you differ, and where you differ it is not that you are just plain wrong, but you are wrong in an interesting way. That is how the Church goes through its process of discernment. It is not necessary to be an intellectual to be a good Catholic, but if you do have intellectual ability it is necessary to use it if you are going to offer your skills to Christ. Disagreement is an entirely different thing to disobedience, though disobedience it is often confused with it.

Fair enough, thanks for explaining. Words are slippery things indeed

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

That should be the one that is used at St. Martins. There was a revision in 1965. Since yours is dated 1964, it is probably the same.

Ok, thanks.

 

[I_Believe]

Hey welcome home! St. Louis Bertrand eh? That is a beautiful Church. I lived in Louisville for 25 years St. Louis, St. James (in the Highlands) and St. Martin’s (on Chestnut if I remember) were all gorgeous.

Hi rt, yes it is beautiful. The first time I attended Mass there, it was hard not to keep looking around during the Liturgy. The carved wood is amazing.

St Martin of Tours is actually on Shelby street, at the corner of Shelby and Gray. Only two blocks from Chestnut.

My favs are St Louis Bertrand, St Martin of Tours, Our Lady, St Boniface, and St Joseph.

Good meeting you, and thanks It is good to be back.

Charles

 

[I_Believe]

Bat, interesting thoughts you offered. Ha, I can see I’ve got some reading to do… on Vatican II itself, as well as church history. That is the only way I can offer any thoughts of my own really, and I’m sure it will answer a lot of questions I have.
As the title of my OP says, I never imagined all this was going on.

Till next time, thanks Bat, 'preciate your thoughts and patience with me.

Charles

 

[Sedes]

I was just playing with you. I don’t really know you, I just recognized the Church you were referring to. I go there for confession every few weeks.

I usually attend St. Martin’s on Broadway (pretty close to St. Louis Bertrand.) I attend the Traditional Mass. Both Churches have a pretty good reputation in the area.

You ought to try the Traditional Mass at St. Martin’s on Broadway sometime. It startes at 12:30PM. You’ll hear the Traditional Mass talked about a lot on these boards. Your fortunate to have a good one nearby. Try to make it this Sunday. We’d love to have you come visit.

louisville-catholic.net/

Have you ever heard of Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel, Pax? I’ve never been but was thinking about checking it out, are you familiar with it?

 

[I_Believe]

Hi Sedes, are you talking about Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel near Churchill Downs ? I pass it on my way to the grocery, but wasn’t aware it was a Catholic Church. Or is it ?

 

[Sedes]

Hi Sedes, are you talking about Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel near Churchill Downs ? I pass it on my way to the grocery, but wasn’t aware it was a Catholic Church. Or is it ?

That’s the one. I believe it’s an “independent” Catholic Church. I have never seen it, just heard about it from people who attend there sometimes, but I did know it’s close to Churchill Downs. Does it look like an actual church from the outside? What kind of building is it in?