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pablope
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Hi,JRKH…the OP has other posts regarding the JWs, his fiance is JW and he has been going to a JW kingdom hall, and he is bombarded with all these things.
He and his fiance needs our prayers.
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He and his fiance needs our prayers.
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T_More
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For the OP, please keep this in mind. The JW’s have a real misunderstanding of the Holy Trinity. They in fact define it the way we understand Modalism. This right off the bat makes it difficult to engage in discussion when they in fact have no clue what the teaching actually is. Defining correct Catholic doctrine is key before debate can begin, otherwise, it’s a complete waste of time.
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KathleenGee
Guest
You are being pressured, overwhelmed and confused…these are not the fruits of the Holy Spirit…
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confusedius
Guest
Of course, benidict.If you could. please clarify what you are stating my friend. peace
I have come to believe that, in this forum, it is a waste of time to try to set forth divergent beliefs, even in a section that is supposed to support same. All I seem to receive is rebuttal, not any version of understanding or willingness to consider.
How does one have any useful dialog with those whose opinions are given to them from some higher order? What is the use? Reason, logic, even facts have no purchase in such a predestined atmosphere. It was all decided by a very, very small group at a conference some 300 odd years after the fact, and so has had the passage of over 1600 years as mordant. Case closed, unless said higher order decides to change something.
My friend, and I truly consider you to be just that, it was just the same with the JW faith, and the main reason I left. I stood stupidly while my classmates divided their attention between saluting the flag and watching me not salute the flag. Why? Could God really conclude I was “worshiping” that flag? No, because some “elder” decided for me.
And, who decided blood transfusions violated God’s law? I watched my grandmother die when she could have easily been saved otherwise. Would that those who came up with that interpretation had that choice to make. Would they stand with grandmother, or would they be like those fat politicians who send our boys to die in war?
God gave me a brain. God gave me the ability to reason. I believe God expects me to use it, to question, to investigate, to find the wonder of His beautiful gift. I love God. I LOVE God! From my soul. If that doesn’t cut any ice in the big picture, well, I am OK with that…
James
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johnpauls
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Well, you may want to read a secular book by Jason BeDuhn (Truth in Translation) before you criticize the JW bible too badly. He ranks the New World Translation by JW’s as the most “unbiased” bible out there - especially dealing with the issue of the trinity.
Many early church writers did not support the trinity, and the very person who coined the phrase, and developed the theology to help explain the trinity later become its biggest opponent in the church - Tertullian.
Justin Martyr:
“For next to God, we worship and love the Logos who is out of the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing” (Second Apology, 13).
"There is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things, above whom there is no other God, wishes to announce to them… I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, I mean numerically, not in will. (Dialogue with Trypho, 56).
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T_More
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johnpauls
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T More:
1. I think we agree on Jason BeDuhn. I never said he was not critical at all about the NWT - just that he considered it the most unbiased. Specifically, he calls to attention that most bibles go out and manipulate translation of the scriptures to support the trinity. That has to be tough to hear if you believe the trinity.
2. Tertullian.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21).
Catholic Encyclopedia ]
He is perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity (Latin trinitas),[5] and giving the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian theology.
Wikipedia ]
Please note what it says. Theophilus first started to use the word “trias”, NOT “trinitas”. Trinitas is the latin word for Trinity - fist used by Tertullian. Tertullian developed the terms association with regards the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. Justin Martyr believed Jesus to be a God - just not the same God. The bible calls Satan a god, and us gods. Your quoted statement is fine, but he clearly states in his writings that the logos is subordinate, and was an Angel.
1. I think we agree on Jason BeDuhn. I never said he was not critical at all about the NWT - just that he considered it the most unbiased. Specifically, he calls to attention that most bibles go out and manipulate translation of the scriptures to support the trinity. That has to be tough to hear if you believe the trinity.
2. Tertullian.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21).
Catholic Encyclopedia ]
He is perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity (Latin trinitas),[5] and giving the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian theology.
Wikipedia ]
Please note what it says. Theophilus first started to use the word “trias”, NOT “trinitas”. Trinitas is the latin word for Trinity - fist used by Tertullian. Tertullian developed the terms association with regards the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. Justin Martyr believed Jesus to be a God - just not the same God. The bible calls Satan a god, and us gods. Your quoted statement is fine, but he clearly states in his writings that the logos is subordinate, and was an Angel.
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johnpauls
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- JW. Not a JW, and you will see in another post that I have criticized them as well - esp. with regards the “governing body” arrangement. I am no specific religion, yet I do not believe in the trinity. BeDuhn is unique since he did not have a pre-convieved idea before he started his research. It is tough to hear since he is a neutral third party who came up with that conclusion. Had it been in reverse, you would be touting it.
- I think you need to take a look at the trinity again. The teaching does not afford any “subordinate” entity. Why dont you show me a reference to a catholic teaching on the trinity that has Jesus subordinate.
- I read all your Scriptures as proof of Jesus not being equal to God. If Jesus was God, why would there need to be a scripture about him being superior to angels? Why would angels need to be required to serve Jesus is he were God? All those scriptures would be meaningless to how obvious angels would need to treat God.
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josephdaniel29
Guest
The beliefs of the JW’s are a stupid error born of incredible arrogance and ego. The idea that you can sever the Holy Scriptures from the Holy Tradition in which it was compiled and try to “recreate” first century Christianity is ridiculous. Do you really believe that the fathers of the First Ecumenical Council just invented the idea that Jesus was of the same substance as the Father? Of course not! The Church had worshiped Jesus as God from the very beginning.
That’s why Arianism failed, it made a lie out of centuries of Tradition. Arius, just like modern JW’s, came armed to the teeth with Scripture verses that supposedly “proved” his position. His mistake was in divorcing Scripture from Tradition.
Modern JW’s attempted to recreate the early Church. All they have recreated is the first and most blasphemous heresy to ever threaten the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I’ll leave you with a quote from the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs.
Hence have arisen manifold and monstrous heresies, which the Catholic Church, even from her infancy,* taking unto her the whole armor of God, and assuming the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God* (Eph. vi. 13-17,) has been compelled to combat. She has triumphed over all unto this day, and she will triumph for ever, being manifested as mightier and more illustrious after each struggle.
Of these heresies, some already have entirely failed, some are in decay, some have wasted away, some yet flourish in a greater or less degree vigorous until the time of their return to the Faith, while others are reproduced to run their course from their birth to their destruction. For being the miserable cogitations and devices of miserable men, both one and the other, struck with the thunderbolt of the anathema of the seven Ecumenical Councils, shall vanish away, though they may last a thousand years; for the orthodoxy of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the living Word of God, alone endures for ever, according to the infallible promise of the LORD: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. xviii. 18).
Through the prayers of our holy fathers St Athanasius and St Nicholas, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us!
That’s why Arianism failed, it made a lie out of centuries of Tradition. Arius, just like modern JW’s, came armed to the teeth with Scripture verses that supposedly “proved” his position. His mistake was in divorcing Scripture from Tradition.
Modern JW’s attempted to recreate the early Church. All they have recreated is the first and most blasphemous heresy to ever threaten the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I’ll leave you with a quote from the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs.
Hence have arisen manifold and monstrous heresies, which the Catholic Church, even from her infancy,* taking unto her the whole armor of God, and assuming the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God* (Eph. vi. 13-17,) has been compelled to combat. She has triumphed over all unto this day, and she will triumph for ever, being manifested as mightier and more illustrious after each struggle.
Of these heresies, some already have entirely failed, some are in decay, some have wasted away, some yet flourish in a greater or less degree vigorous until the time of their return to the Faith, while others are reproduced to run their course from their birth to their destruction. For being the miserable cogitations and devices of miserable men, both one and the other, struck with the thunderbolt of the anathema of the seven Ecumenical Councils, shall vanish away, though they may last a thousand years; for the orthodoxy of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the living Word of God, alone endures for ever, according to the infallible promise of the LORD: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. xviii. 18).
Through the prayers of our holy fathers St Athanasius and St Nicholas, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us!
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Well now, let me get this straight. Some mook decided “independently” that the Trinity is a farce and we’re all supposed to drop our faith and bow to the almighty BeDuhn? Dude, I gotta know: what are you smoking?
It occurs to me that the JWs throw a lot of words at people, the substance of which comes *entirely *from that four letter word that this society thrives on: FEAR; but when push comes to shove, I can’t honestly say I have ever seen the light of Christ in a single one of them. I’m fairly certain this is not something they even strive for, let *alone *any gifts of the Spirit which we see manifested in Protestant and Catholic alike. (Sorry, guys, I’ve seen some beautiful examples of Christians in non-Catholics). Nope. So, let’s step back from all this “he said”-“he said” debate and look at the core of the matter: do you worship Love (pure oneness with faith) or Fear (the opposite if faith)? Who is your God?
Were you not made in God’s image?
What is the greatest commandment?
The Jews call it the “Shema”:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/shema.html
You shall love the Lord your God with all your
- Heart
- Soul
- Strength/Mind or “Might”
These components that make us up are inseparable, but unique from one another and important enough to state independently. If we can exist in such a state, can not God, who is infinitely greater than us exist in an infinitely more perfect state; that is three unique aspects within one being?
There is no perfect explanation of “Trinity” but in order to deny Christ’s divinity one has to overlook vast mountains of data points not only in the Gospels, but in the Epistles, throughout history (we’re talking TONS of miracles here) AND his very real presence in our lives today.
To ask a person to suspend disbelief to *THAT *degree is not just foolishness, it is sheer madness.
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confusedius
Guest
"There is no perfect explanation of “Trinity” but in order to deny Christ’s divinity one has to overlook vast mountains of data points not only in the Gospels, but in the Epistles, throughout history (we’re talking TONS of miracles here) AND his very real presence in our lives today.
To ask a person to suspend disbelief to THAT degree is not just foolishness, it is sheer madness."
So, it is fooloish to question something for which “there is no perfect explanation?” Something that, at one time, many if not most believed in, and that many find at odds with some of the words of Christ?
I do not believe in the Trinity other that it was man-made and carries no purchase of proof. I believe it came from necessity- the necessity to hedge bets if an angry God took us to task for worshiping other than He.
I have read the Bible cover to cover (had to skip most of the begats, though) with special attention to the words and actions fo God and Christ. I find the differences in their “personalities”, if you will, their reactions to the foibles of humans,their words and actions,strikingly different.
If augmented with no more than the words of a dying Christ to God I feel grounded in my belief.
James
To ask a person to suspend disbelief to THAT degree is not just foolishness, it is sheer madness."
So, it is fooloish to question something for which “there is no perfect explanation?” Something that, at one time, many if not most believed in, and that many find at odds with some of the words of Christ?
I do not believe in the Trinity other that it was man-made and carries no purchase of proof. I believe it came from necessity- the necessity to hedge bets if an angry God took us to task for worshiping other than He.
I have read the Bible cover to cover (had to skip most of the begats, though) with special attention to the words and actions fo God and Christ. I find the differences in their “personalities”, if you will, their reactions to the foibles of humans,their words and actions,strikingly different.
If augmented with no more than the words of a dying Christ to God I feel grounded in my belief.
James
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William_Pitts
Guest
I use this when they come to my door. I tell them if they miss who Jesus really is then they miss everything. Don’t be fooled by their tactics. They seek to confuse those who don’t have a deep knowledge of their faith and to capture the weak-minded.
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Timothy17
Guest
In every attempt to re-create the first century Church outside of the Catholic Church, we find produced instead a replica of some heretical sect that was the torment of the very Church they imagined to re-establish in the first place.
It is manifestly obvious that Christians worshipped Christ as God from the very beginning. Our liturgical traditions date to time immemorial, and were spoken of as ancient and immemorial even by the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries when being referenced. They are the deposit of the Apostles themsevles.
So yes, it is absolutely absurd to expect us to give any credence or respect to sects and heresies that make shipwreck of the Truth, the Church and the Faith, which same Faith has been trasmitted down through history.
The Catholic Faith is not only manifest in the 1st century. It is manifest even in the millenia preceding it :
For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.
Original Sin. Also touches on i) the Virgin Birth, and ii) the Immaculate Conception.
For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.
The Reality of Divine Revelation ; man’s need to accept and consent himself entirely to it.
Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
Annointing, Confirmation, Baptism.
Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
Christ’s Blood as a covering, which was prefigured in Genesis by God’s providing of His own making and accord a covering for the nakedness of his fallen creatures, Adam and Eve. The indelible mark of Baptism, which impresses Christ’s image and likeness upon our souls, so the Apostle could say, “you are hid in Christ.”
Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels.
Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and strengthen me with a perfect spirit.
I will teach the unjust thy ways: and the wicked shall be converted to thee.
O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise.
Pentecost. The gift of the Holy Spirit. The practice of offering oneself as a holocaust.
For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted.
The Old Covenant as imperfect or incomplete, and in need of perfection or fulfillment.
A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up.
Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.
The New, Heavenly and unassailable Jerusalem (the Church, against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail). The Mass as the perfect and only acceptable true offering and sacrifice to God, which is the seal of the Eternal Covenant and shall be perpetuated forever, even in Heaven.*
This is a prayer of King David.
Pax Christi,
Tim
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johnpauls
Guest
That statement cannot be further from the truth. In fact, many theologians who profess the trinity agree that Jesus and God were not initially thought of as the same by the Apostles or church fathers.
The mere fact this issue was tearing the church apart in the 4th century is clear evidence that there was no consensus - and there was a huge following of the Arian Controversy. Had this issue been “obvious that Christians worshipped Christ as God from eh very beginning”, its doubtful the controversy would have been such a big deal.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Christians need to study early Christian history. It will diffuse alot of misunderstandings, and more importantly, bias and animosity.
That is because the truth sets us free.
That is because the truth sets us free.
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confusedius
Guest
As Snowball would ask of Napoleon, “whose truth”?
James
James
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KathleenGee
Guest
Documented and consistent teaching of the truths passed to us from the oral tradition of Jesus Christ, sustained by the Holy Spirit by those chosen by Christ in spirit and truth.
Ours is sacramental history, concrete, affirming, a faith with certitude vs the relativism of personal interpretation that is the work of men, subsequently the fragmentation of Christianity and its dissipation in the face of atheism and moral degeneration.
Ours is sacramental history, concrete, affirming, a faith with certitude vs the relativism of personal interpretation that is the work of men, subsequently the fragmentation of Christianity and its dissipation in the face of atheism and moral degeneration.
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confusedius
Guest
Truth that has been passed to you in the oral tradition. Hmmm. That would be hearsay, other than the words specifically attributed to Christ in the Bible.
Sorry, but I feel there is plenty of reason for the Jehovah Witness faith and others to search out their own version of truth without “heresy” being tossed around as it is on this forum.
Which brings up a question I have been wanting to ask: what is the Catholic definition of “heresy”?
James
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