Writings Which the Catholic Church decided to be the "Canon" of Scripture of the New Testament:

[zcharry]

The CC is not wrong you just take that passage completely out of context. You also can note that in that post it did not say WORKS ALONE. So you misinterpret the passage of the CCC.
There is one thing you left out that is mention of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church teaches this that it is God’s grace that saves. This moves our faith in Christ, and by showing our faith, we do so by our actions. In fact in the end of our life, we are judge not by faith we are judge by our deeds.

To further my point that the CC does teaches Grace is the only means of salvation.

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

You cannot take words out of context when they are written under the heading of how you Merit.
I have run into this before and going to we are saved by works thread, which I have read, is not going to change the fact of what is written.
You might not believe it but you Church clearly states that you are justified initially by God and then you can work or merit for yours and others for your and their salvation.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Either you believe this or you do not, but do not tell me I am taking out of context, if any thing I am stating it right from your CC to give you the proof of what your Church says.
Any other statement that seem to contradict these are either wrong or this statement is wrong. Two conflicting points, one has to be wrong.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You cannot take words out of context when they are written under the heading of how you Merit.
I have run into this before and going to we are saved by works thread, which I have read, is not going to change the fact of what is written.
You might not believe it but you Church clearly states that you are justified initially by God and then you can work or merit for yours and others for your and their salvation.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Either you believe this or you do not, but do not tell me I am taking out of context, if any thing I am stating it right from your CC to give you the proof of what your Church says.
Any other statement that seem to contradict these are either wrong or this statement is wrong. Two conflicting points, one has to be wrong.

I think JustinApologist is saying that you did not consider CCC 2003 into context. There is contradictory statement here. The views does not conflict.

CCC 2003 defines what Grace is in accordance with the what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[JustinApologist]

You cannot take words out of context when they are written under the heading of how you Merit.
I have run into this before and going to we are saved by works thread, which I have read, is not going to change the fact of what is written.
You might not believe it but you Church clearly states that you are justified initially by God and then you can work or merit for yours and others for your and their salvation.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Either you believe this or you do not, but do not tell me I am taking out of context, if any thing I am stating it right from your CC to give you the proof of what your Church says.
Any other statement that seem to contradict these are either wrong or this statement is wrong. Two conflicting points, one has to be wrong.

You are taking it out of context, plus this is getting out of topic, and you wish to discuss this you need **open a new thread **concerning grace and justification.

 

[zcharry]

You are taking it out of context, plus this is getting out of topic, and you wish to discuss this you need **open a new thread **concerning grace and justification.

It is not out of Context at all!!!
I will halt on this topic with this last word, if you can not belive what is in your own CC how do you expect people to belive anything you say

 

[JustinApologist]

It is not out of Context at all!!!
I will halt on this topic with this last word, if you can not belive what is in your own CC how do you expect people to belive anything you say

It is taken out of context according to your interpretation. Are you a Catholic Theologian who thinks he understands Catechism of the Catholic Church?

For one you aren’t Catholic. You have no credibility on your interpretation. You are a Lutheran, that is why you do not understand this passage. You make presumption to think that there is a contradiction in teaching.

Like I said before I will not have this thread derail. I have save you some time so I created a thread concerning CCC 2010.

The Thread is called Justification and Grace according to the Catholic Church

 

[MrS]

I agree with the Bible passages, but where I disagree is they do not speak of the only one Church as the Catholic Church. I know the next point is that the Catholic Church has it ties to the original Church, but so do all Christian Churches.
Bear with me and I will make these points separate.

Jesus wanted people to hear his Word and He wanted the disciples to make sure they understood what they said was from Him. Not what they added to His teaching but what He had taught them. Hence, he who hears you, hear Me… and the One Who sent Me…

“…the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church…” Yes, His word would be the pillar and the foundation on which the Church is built. This does not mean there is only one church in name, but anywhere His word is preached His Church will be there. Hence, the passage that says Where two or more believers are gathered He is there. If the Catholic Church were, destroyed tomorrow would Gods Church stop to exist? No, it would live on in every small place people gathered to sing His Praise.

“…feed My sheep… tend My flock…feed My sheep…”
This is a huge jump to only one Church. God used many people to spread His Word. It was a directive to Peter but it does not say you and you alone or your successor only. The Church has the responsibility to spread His word, but His word stands on its own with or without the Church. History has proved this repeatedly. Look in Iraq in this given day. A person is dying for his Christian belief in the Word of God. God and his Word are the one true Church and every Church that preaches His Word is that one true Church of God!

God Bless You and Your Church in its mission for God

but so do all Christian Churches
Your viewpoint is bound to be quite different when the understanding of what a Church is and what is not has been distorted as a fruit of the Reformation.
The Church is Jesus.
The Church is a body of baptized believers.
The Church is the Spouse of the Lord, the Bride of Christ.
The Church is NOT the faith communities that are outside the only Church - the Catholic Church. The separation from unity, authority, is what causes faith communities to be just that… inspite of the fact that they all still “use” the word.

He wanted the disciples to make sure they understood what they said was from Him. Not what they added
zzzzttt… wrong answer…
What new translation would satisfy that interpretation: how about "…he who hears anybody talking anything about Me, hears Me…

“…feed My sheep… tend My flock…feed My sheep…”
This is a huge jump to only one Church. God used many people to spread His Word. It was a directive to Peter but it does not say you and you alone or your successor only
This verse was selected to show that Jesus chose the fallible Peter ALONE (unless you can show ANY verse in the NT where another is given this powerful directive) to be the one with Divine Authority to teach HIS sheep.

Combine that with the divine directive and the empowerment to bind and loose, and you have not only One Church founded by Jesus, but also the authority to act in His name given to Peter alone (for reference, look to the example in Isaiah 22:22 and the authority of the “keys” given by the King to the prime minister to act in the King’s behalf until the King returns).

Your personal situation as a Lutheran is hindered not only by losing out on the sacraments (those unavailable to one not Apostolically ordained)… but also by being cut adrift from the leadership of the Church. Both the leadership and the Church are well defined by Jesus… so well defined in the NT that no other faith community can even claim to be that one Church.

Hence the response is that we are all part of the church. Body of believers…yes. But that is it.

.

 

[MrS]

You might not believe it but you Church clearly states that you are justified initially by God and then you can work or merit for yours and others for your and their salvation.

.

Just out of curiosity… do you think that the Apostles have a “better room in the mansion”. I do.

Did they “work” their way into that position??

Or did their saintly lives “merit” that position.

Can’t promise… but maybe that will help you see that there is a big difference between “working” or "earning salvation, and receiving due merit.

.

 

[zcharry]

Just out of curiosity… do you think that the Apostles have a “better room in the mansion”. I do.

Did they “work” their way into that position??

Or did their saintly lives “merit” that position.

Can’t promise… but maybe that will help you see that there is a big difference between “working” or "earning salvation, and receiving due merit.

.

This off thread and moreover, I sorry to have digressed. However you can word it anyway you want, your CC is very clear on the subject and I have not taken anything out of context.

Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

God Bless

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

God Bless

Yes we can and we should. The Church can’t do that for us. The Church is a free gift to help us with that very task. It has 2000 years of revealed wisdom from the Holy Spirit to draw from that is often above our abilities to understand it yet prayer for wisdom will get us closer.

Knock and you shall recieve. Knock and knock and knock.

 

[zcharry]

Yes we can and we should. The Church can’t do that for us. The Church is a free gift to help us with that very task. It has 2000 years of revealed wisdom from the Holy Spirit to draw from that is often above our abilities to understand it yet prayer for wisdom will get us closer.

Knock and you shall recieve. Knock and knock and knock.

I will try and keep knocking to!!!

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I will try and keep knocking to!!!

I believe you will. It shows.