E
Esdra
Guest
Okay, then please show me other verses from Jewish scriptures that impose that the Jews did pray for the Dead similar than Catholics (and Orthodox) do now.
I am really interested.
- Status
I am really interested.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
mpdmed,
I think, today, Catholics and non-Catholics have far more in common, when it comes to Bible translations.
For Catholics who remain suspicious of all Protestant translations, I give you the following information.
The Catholic Bible Association adopted the Revised Standard Version, used primarily by non-Catholics and edited it for Catholic use. The RSV became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, **The Ignatius Bible. **
In addition, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, uses the RSV and NRSV by permission from the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
“Scripture quotations contained herein are adapted from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, 1971, and the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States, and are used by permission. All rights reserved.”
Link to Member Communions and Denominations of the National Council of Churches: ncccusa.org/members/index.html
The Catholic use of the RSV and NRSV in the CCC is rather surprising. One might expect an English translation of the Latin Vulgate; but that is not the case.
So, in the case of the RSV and NRSV; Catholics actually embraced a Protestant translation, and made some minor changes to make it acceptable for Catholics–thus was born the RSV-CE and NRSV-CE. I might add, there were very few changes made to the Catholic Editions of these translations. Most involved a difference in what was placed in the main body of the Biblical text and what was placed in the footnotes.
Also, the non-Catholic versions of the NRSV/RSV are available both with and without the Deuterocanonical Books.
I have a NRSV with the Deuterocanonical Books (they are included in the Anglican Canon) and I have one without these Books. The one without is simply lighter to carry.
Let’s celebrate the fact that we are all moving closer together.
Peace,
Anna
N
Nicea325
Guest
Oh I see,there needs to be several verses to prove it? How ironic? I have yet to find anywhere in my Bible the terms: Trinity,Incarnation and especially canon. Yet we accept it as part of the deposit of faith. Esdra, no offense,but you need to remove yourself from the belief “everything” must be said in the Bible explicitly or else it is false. Care to show me where Jesus left us: It must be in the Bible or do not believe it!
Problem is that Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine of purgatory. Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.
Abercius
“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).
The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity
“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and * knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).
Tertullian
“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).
“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).
The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7).* Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one*, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.
The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.
You do not believe me? There is a movie called the 7th Sign with Demi Moore. In a scene Demi Moore who protrays a pregnant woman and she happens to walk-in into a synagogue looking for a man and the janitor tells her:
You better leave…now lady. Demi replies, “Why?” The man replies, “Because you do not want to disturb Kaddish.” Demi replies, “Kaddish?” The man replies, “Yes,prayers for the dead.”
Peace*
E
Esdra
Guest
himpdmed,
I think, today, Catholics and non-Catholics have far more in common, when it comes to Bible translations.
For Catholics who remain suspicious of all Protestant translations, I give you the following information.
The Catholic Bible Association adopted the Revised Standard Version, used primarily by non-Catholics and edited it for Catholic use. The RSV became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, **The Ignatius Bible. **
In addition, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, uses the RSV and NRSV by permission from the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
“Scripture quotations contained herein are adapted from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, 1971, and the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States, and are used by permission. All rights reserved.”
Link to Member Communions and Denominations of the National Council of Churches: ncccusa.org/members/index.html
So, in the case of the RSV and NRSV; Catholics actually embraced a Protestant translation, and made some minor changes to make it acceptable for Catholics–thus was born the RSV-CE and NRSV-CE. I might add, there were very few changes made to the Catholic Editions of these translations. Most involved a difference in what was placed in the main body of the Biblical text and what was placed in the footnotes.
Also, the non-Catholic versions of the NRSV/RSV are available both with and without the Deuterocanonical Books.
I have a NRSV with the Deuterocanonical Books and I have one without these Books. The one without is simply lighter to carry.
Let’s celebrate the fact that we are all moving closer together.
Peace,
Anna
thank you for this post. this is really interesting.
I’ve got a NRSV Catholic Edition (with apocrypha/deuterocanonicals) and a protestant NRSV Bible (without apocrypha/deuterocanonicals) at home. I’ve just checked: In one it says Catholic Edition and in the other not. So I guess one is the CE and one the PE)
Could you, please, give me an example, where (which verse or footnote) the Catholic Edition differs from the Protestant edition?
Thank you.
in Christ,
E
ESMDHokie77
Guest
I am aware. I am also aware that the Peter was given the keys to bind and loose, and that his successors are the apostolic successive Vicars of Christ.Okay back to topic, if you want to!
Are you aware that an Orthodox would say:
“The Orthodox Bible: The Whole Written Word of God.
The Catholic and Protestant Bible: Most of the Written Word of God.” ?
You do know, they have an even larger canon than the Catholics? - And the Oriental Orthodox have an even larger canon than the Eastern Orthodox?
Tell me one thing, what does the larger canon of the CC say that doesn’t also say in the “not complete” Protestant Bible? — Except praying for the Dead in 1 Maccabbees? - Which is in my opinion just as apocryphal as the Gnostic apocryphal gospels.
Your question seems trivial to me, the material in the other books is what’s also missing from your bible. It’s not what I deem appropriate though, it’s what God deems appropriate THROUGH His CHURCH to teach here on Earth.
Your opinion means little to the doctrinal teachings of anyone except you. I strive daily to completely follow Christ and His Church. I am sorry to hear you consider the deuterocanon on the same level of gnostic material.
1
1holycatholic
Guest
N
Nicea325
Guest
For the life of me, I do not understand why so-called “Bible-Only” Christians believe Jesus’ left us Bibles and not His Church? Geee…scripture is clear what he founded and left as the authority on earth: His Church,not the Bible?
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
mpdmed,
I think, today, Catholics and non-Catholics have far more in common, when it comes to Bible translations.
For Catholics who remain suspicious of all Protestant translations, I give you the following information.
The Catholic Bible Association adopted the Revised Standard Version, used primarily by non-Catholics and edited it for Catholic use. The RSV became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, **The Ignatius Bible. **
In addition, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, uses the RSV and NRSV by permission from the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
“Scripture quotations contained herein are adapted from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, 1971, and the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States, and are used by permission. All rights reserved.”
Link to Member Communions and Denominations of the National Council of Churches: ncccusa.org/members/index.html
The Catholic use of the RSV and NRSV in the CCC is rather surprising. One might expect an English translation of the Latin Vulgate; but that is not the case.
So, in the case of the RSV and NRSV; Catholics actually embraced a Protestant translation, and made some minor changes to make it acceptable for Catholics–thus was born the RSV-CE and NRSV-CE. I might add, there were very few changes made to the Catholic Editions of these translations. Most involved a difference in what was placed in the main body of the Biblical text and what was placed in the footnotes.
Also, the non-Catholic versions of the NRSV/RSV are available both with and without the Deuterocanonical Books.
I have a NRSV with the Deuterocanonical Books (they are included in the Anglican Canon) and I have one without these Books. The one without is simply lighter to carry.
Let’s celebrate the fact that we are all moving closer together.
Peace,
Anna
N
Nicea325
Guest
Amen!
1
1holycatholic
Guest
For the life of me, I do not understand why so-called “Bible-Only” Christians believe Jesus’ left us Bibles and not His Church? Geee…scripture is clear what he founded and left as the authority on earth: His Church,not the Bible?
History shmistory!
E
Esdra
Guest
Oh I see,there needs to be several verses to prove it? How ironic? I have yet to find anywhere in my Bible the terms: Trinity,Incarnation and especially canon. Yet we accept it as part of the deposit of faith. Esdra, no offense,but you need to remove yourself from the belief “everything” must be said in the Bible explicitly or else it is false. Care to show me where Jesus left us: It must be in the Bible or do not believe it!
Problem is that Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine of purgatory. Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.
Abercius
“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).
The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity
“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and * knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).
Tertullian*
“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).
“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).
The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7).* Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one*, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.
The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.
You do not believe me? There is a movie called the 7th Sign with Demi Moore. In a scene Demi Moore who protrays a pregnant woman and she happens to walk-in into a synagogue looking for a man and the janitor tells her:
You better leave…now lady. Demi replies, “Why?” The man replies, “Because you do not want to disturb Kaddish.” Demi replies, “Kaddish?” The man replies, “Yes,prayers for the dead.”
Peace
Wow thank you. This post is really good and makes sense to me. Being a Baptist I am naturally not a fan of the Apocrypha like The Life of Adam and Eve.
Okay, now I know that the Orthodox Jews also pray for their dead.
Is this movie you mentioned a good one?
The quotes from the NT: The part of the Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthian is really good. At the moment I don’t have another explanation than that St. Paul is indeed speaking about purgatory.
The verses out of the Gospels, well, for me they mean something different. But I don’t want to expand here.
Well, again thank you!
J
josephback
Guest
I understand your perspective. The Catholic and Protestant views are basically diametrically opposed on what constitutes “the Church”. In the first the Church is a visible entity with a visible leadership, and in the second as you said it is composed of “true Christians” from different denominations. I used to profess the second, but have become convinced of the first. What does Scripture teach/imply?
E
Esdra
Guest
Thank you Anna.
That link is really interesting.
Nevertheless, I use the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition from 1989.
So, juding from Wikipedia this translation wouldn’t be used in an English (US) mass.
M
mpdmed
Guest
I thought my original question, the subject of this forum, was a simple one but I still don’t have a simple answer. People are going off on tangents. Can anyone answer me honestly and without bias to one belief or another? I am Catholic and my question is not posed to prove a point to those who are not. I pose the question in order to better understand reality.
For a moment Let’s forget about differences in translation and interpretation. I believe the catholic Bible today contains all the books that were present when the Bible was originally crated. Is this right or wrong?
For a moment Let’s forget about differences in translation and interpretation. I believe the catholic Bible today contains all the books that were present when the Bible was originally crated. Is this right or wrong?
S
srferdave
Guest
That is correct. The Bible Jesus used is the Bible that we use today… with the New Testament added.
M
mpdmed
Guest
I agree the closer we get the better. Please understand my agenda is not to highlight differences but to understand them.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
And where did Christ state the first Church formed would be the ‘false’ Church?
Christ said, ‘even the gates of hell shall not prevail’ when telling of His Church. Now you expect us to believe that there was a false Church for 1500 years until the divisions of the reformation got it all right?
But it’s okay for you to come to a Catholic forum and declare the Catholic Church as ‘false’?
Is your idea of sharing, hearing us explain our faith and then you declare it wrong, or even false, or wolves in sheep’s clothing?
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
The Church was in sole possession of the scriptures from the beginning and all through the 1500 years. The Church defined the canon and even you accept that canon of the New Testament. There was a little more to it than ‘copying’.
1
1holycatholic
Guest
The Bible contains the same seventy three books today as it did when the Canon was defined by the Church in the late fourth century.
Actually, I wasn’t speaking of them in this way, which is why I said “Bibles”. The various Orthodox Churches use varying canons of the OT. The claim that the canon was infallibly set when many of the sees within the Church of that time don’t use the same canon is perplexing. And they clearly are not a non-issue if they are considered canon.
In addition is the question of the ecumenical nature of local and regional synods that are sometimes used to claim an inffalible setting of the canon in the 4th century.
I’m not totally convinced that the D-C’s shouldn’t, at least in some way, be included in the canon (correct, I’m not sure Luther, Jerome, Cajetan, etc were right), but the claim that local councils could set the canon infallibly seems debatable.
Jon
- Status