Wrong bible for first 1500 years?

[1holycatholic]

But that is my point - there wasn’t one agreed on canon. There were differences throughout the Christian world.

My point is that there was a Canon of Scripture infallibly defined by the ordinary and universal Magisterium in the late fourth century. See Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma pp. 299-300.

That there were subsequent dissenters has no bearing on the matter.

 

[Bluegoat]

Hello bluegoat, How can these churches be in communion if they had different canons?

Matthew

Why would that be an impediment, in your view?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

In addition is the question of the ecumenical nature of local and regional synods that are sometimes used to claim an inffalible setting of the canon in the 4th century.

I’m not totally convinced that the D-C’s shouldn’t, at least in some way, be included in the canon (correct, I’m not sure Luther, Jerome, Cajetan, etc were right), but the claim that local councils could set the canon infallibly seems debatable.

Jon

Hi Jon -

There were four local councils that affirmed the same canon. Rome (A. D. 382), Pope Damasus I presiding; Hippo (393) St.Augustine presiding, Carthage (397, 419) St. Augustine again presiding. Pope Innocent I affirmed the canon in 405. Carthage sent the decree “across the sea” to Rome for approval by Pope Boniface I.

Pope Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to translate the Vulgate based on the canon of the Council of Rome. The Vulgate was published in 405.

Trent, an ecumenical council, affirmed the ancient Vulgate.

QUOTE:

But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema

END QUOTE

Some Protestant authorities regard Carthage (397) as the defining council for the NT.

Quoting the Ryrie Study Bible: “The first church council to list all twenty-seven books of the New Testament was the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397.”

Ryrie doesn’t mention it, but the Catholic Bishops also canonized the Old Testament at the same time they canonized the New Testament in the same Councils. The OT writings canonized were the 46 books of the Greek Septuagint that the church inherited from Jesus and the Apostles.

It is unclear to me when and why the Orthodox added to the canon, if that’s the appropriate term, but I know precisely when Protestants subtracted from it: 1534.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Nicea325]

Wow thank you. This post is really good and makes sense to me. Being a Baptist I am naturally not a fan of the Apocrypha like The Life of Adam and Eve.
Okay, now I know that the Orthodox Jews also pray for their dead.
Is this movie you mentioned a good one?
The quotes from the NT: The part of the Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthian is really good. At the moment I don’t have another explanation than that St. Paul is indeed speaking about purgatory.
The verses out of the Gospels, well, for me they mean something different. But I don’t want to expand here.

Well, again thank you!

Well one does not even be Christian to dislike Apocrypha material. However, do not jump the gun and believe all Apocrypha material is “bad” as we have been told. Some material did contain some orthodoxy but at the same time some of it was not in-tune with Christian orthodox teachings. For example, The Life of Adamn and Eve do tell us a lot what the Jews did believe even though it may not be in our Bibles.

The movie is not bad,but like I said,the prayers for the dead is mentioned and evidently orthodox Jews still believe it.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Here’s another link with a bit more information: scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

1holycatholic,

Thanks for the link. Very informative.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Wow thank you. This post is really good and makes sense to me. Being a Baptist I am naturally not a fan of the Apocrypha like The Life of Adam and Eve.
Okay, now I know that the Orthodox Jews also pray for their dead.
Is this movie you mentioned a good one?
The quotes from the NT: The part of the Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthian is really good. At the moment I don’t have another explanation than that St. Paul is indeed speaking about purgatory.
The verses out of the Gospels, well, for me they mean something different. But I don’t want to expand here.

Well, again thank you!

Esdra,
I’m really confused about your religion and what you believe should be in the Biblical Canon.

You say you are a Baptist and not a fan of the Apocrypha; but then on your thread regarding Baptists and Sacraments, you refer to The Community of Christ, using the Book of Mormon and their version of the D&C.

So, are you a Baptist or part of a Mormon sect? I don’t want to debate Mormon issues. I just want to understand where you are coming from.

. . . . .The Community of Christ is (despite using the BoM and their version of the D&C; although even that gets rarer.) a Protestant denomination just like the LCMS or any other. - And they are getting year-by-year more Mainstream Protestants.

. . . .As you may know or not, I am quite influenced by Mormon thinking because I’ve studied for quite a time know the one or other location the Book of Mormon (and seldom the Doctrine and Covenants - Community of Christ Edition). - And their understanding of the Lord’s Supper isn’t too far away of mainstream protestant churches.

So my point is (and Publisher will certainly agree with me here, as he also has studied the BoM) that the BoM is quite a “Baptist book”.

Peace,
Anna

 

[onmyknees]

Oh, my mistake. Of course we have to repent. Baptists teach (in contrary to the CC) that this can be done to God directly, but you are right, you have to be willing to repent. then you will be forgiven. - But I think if you are not willing to repent, you would also not ask God for forgiveness (or to take a Catholic example, wouldn’t go to confession).

Hi Esdra, This caught my attention and I don’t know if someone already told you this or not.

Catholics do repent to Jesus directly in confession. The priest is in Persona Christi when he is hearing confessions and forgiving our sins so we are really speaking to Jesus.

John 20:21-23 Jesus said this only to His apostles, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” And when He said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

[amber_lux]

Esdra;:

Except praying for the Dead in 1 Maccabbees?.

Which is also found in the general epistles.

Amber

 

[amber_lux]

Jim Dandy;:

For the record, it was Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation that Luther removed from the canon of the NT.

He didn’t remove them from the canon, he questioned their status as canonical.

He also removed Tobit, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Wisdom, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and parts of Esther and Daniel from the canon of the OT.

Nor did he remove those books from the Bible. He did have a number of questions about including them in the canon.

Amber

 

[Esdra]

Actually,I plan to buy the NRSV-CE.

Are you asking which English translation is used in a U.S. Catholic Mass? If so, Catholics can better answer this.

Anna

No not really. that was just what wikipedia said that in the CC the NRSV-CE is not allowed to be used in masses
However, one can use the RSV-CE (1st and 2nd edition) and the New American Bible (NAB).
That’s all I wanted with that post and of course thanking you. Really intersting!

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
I’m really confused about your religion and what you believe should be in the Biblical Canon.

You say you are a Baptist and not a fan of the Apocrypha; but then on your thread regarding Baptists and Sacraments, you refer to The Community of Christ, using the Book of Mormon and their version of the D&C.

So, are you a Baptist or part of a Mormon sect? I don’t want to debate Mormon issues. I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Peace,
Anna

Actually, I am still a Catholic - meaning I haven’t officially resigned from the Roman Catholic Church (here in Austria one doesn’t only have to resign in the diocese, but also by state it’s required to officially resign “secular” in the town hall, because the Catholic Churche is a state religion here. - Unlike the US, as I got to know here in CAF).

I have been searching for the Jesus of the Bible and a “ancient Christian community” for 8 years now. In 2009 I finally found it for me in a Baptist Church (Although it’s called Free-evangelical Church and not Baptist Church; but they are Baptists believing in giving one’s life to Jesus and the Credo Baptism, as well as sola scriptura etc.).
On my search I have quite thorougly studied the Scriptures of the LDS and was even for quite a time in Email contact with a Mormon minister. So it is definitely the case that I do have some Mormon believes, especially because some believes of them are not destinctivly Mormon but Protestant and they do have some things in common with the Baptists IMO.
Later on then I realized that the LDS are not really Christians, or at least only partly.

So I moved on to the Community of Christ and also got in Email contact with ministers of them.
I just like the BoM somehow. It is not really a typical Mormon book, but a Christian one, to be more accurate, I think it’s a Baptist book.
The CofC D&C are (except of the first 107 sections; and that’s also only a selection of the LDS D&C; as the LDS Church has 138 (+2)) very different from the LDS version.
I know that the BoM is not an historic account of the ancestors of the Native Americans, but a “sort of catechism” from the 19th century. And the newer parts of the CofC Edition of the D&C (meaning from section 108 to 164) are more “pastoral letters” and protocols of leadership meetings.

Well, yes, that’s were I am coming from. So I am not a Mormon (LDS) nor a member of the Community of Christ. - Although I sympatisize with the latter.

in Christ,

 

[1holycatholic]

Actually, I am still a Catholic - meaning I haven’t officially resigned from the Roman Catholic Church (here in Austria one doesn’t only have to resign in the diocese, but also by state it’s required to officially resign “secular” in the town hall, because the Catholic Churche is a state religion here. - Unlike the US, as I got to know here in CAF).

I have been searching for the Jesus of the Bible and a “ancient Christian community” for 8 years now. In 2009 I finally found it for me in a Baptist Church (Although it’s called Free-evangelical Church and not Baptist Church; but they are Baptists believing in giving one’s life to Jesus and the Credo Baptism, as well as sola scriptura etc.).
On my search I have quite thorougly studied the Scriptures of the LDS and was even for quite a time in Email contact with a Mormon minister. So it is definitely the case that I do have some Mormon believes, especially because some believes of them are not destinctivly Mormon but Protestant and they do have some things in common with the Baptists IMO.
Later on then I realized that the LDS are not really Christians, or at least only partly.

So I moved on to the Community of Christ and also got in Email contact with ministers of them.
I just like the BoM somehow. It is not really a typical Mormon book, but a Christian one, to be more accurate, I think it’s a Baptist book.
The CofC D&C are (except of the first 107 sections; and that’s also only a selection of the LDS D&C; as the LDS Church has 138 (+2)) very different from the LDS version.
I know that the BoM is not an historic account of the ancestors of the Native Americans, but a “sort of catechism” from the 19th century. And the newer parts of the CofC Edition of the D&C (meaning from section 108 to 164) are more “pastoral letters” and protocols of leadership meetings.

Well, yes, that’s were I am coming from. So I am not a Mormon (LDS) nor a member of the Community of Christ. - Although I sympatisize with the latter.

in Christ,

You were searching for an “ancient Christian community” and you ended up in one that did not exist until the seventeenth century.

You’re already a member ad-aeternum of the only church Christ established, the Catholic Church from which the Bible proceeds.

 

[john_aurelius]

“We have the authentic book of Jesus son of Sirach, and another pseudepigraphic work, entitled the Wisdom of Solomon. I found the first in Hebrew, with the title, ‘Parables’, not Ecclesiasticus, as in Latin versions…The second finds no place in Hebrew texts, and its style is redolent of Greek eloquence: a number of ancient writers assert that it is a work of Philo Judaeus. Therefore, just as the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them to the canon of Scripture; so let the Church read these two volumes, for the edification of the people,** but not to support the authority of ecclesiastical doctrines.” **Jerome, Preface to Proverbs (A.D. 398).

What do we say concerning Jerome’s censure of the dutero-canonicals in this reference?

After all if its canon then it should be able to support the weight of doctrine :bible1:

 

[Esdra]

You were searching for an “ancient Christian community” and you ended up in one that did not exist until the seventeenth century.

You’re already a member ad-aeternum of the only church Christ established, the Catholic Church from which the Bible proceeds.

I said for me I’ve found an “ancient Christian community”.
This doesn’t diminish the fact that the Catholic Church is much older.
But what I was searching for, a caring community of people who really beleave and who burn for Christ, also the younger ones and my age, I’ve not found in the CC (although one maybe needs to say that Catholicism in Austria is quite differently than Catholicism in Central Europe where I am from) but in this small Baptist Church (with roughly 50 members).
I mean I still sometimes attend masses, as Catholicism is by far the biggest Church here in Austria and every village has a Catholic Church, often even more than one.
And what I really miss is the livilness. Everytime I attend mass I go out and say to myself, that’s so dead, no livileness etc at all…

 

[1holycatholic]

I said for me I’ve found an “ancient Christian community”.
This doesn’t diminish the fact that the Catholic Church is much older.
But what I was searching for, a caring community of people who really beleave and who burn for Christ, also the younger ones and my age, I’ve not found in the CC (although one maybe needs to say that Catholicism in Austria is quite differently than Catholicism in Central Europe where I am from) but in this small Baptist Church (with roughly 50 members).
I mean I still sometimes attend masses, as Catholicism is by far the biggest Church here in Austria and every village has a Catholic Church, often even more than one.
And what I really miss is the livilness. Everytime I attend mass I go out and say to myself, that’s so dead, no livileness etc at all…

Liveliness? Read John Ch 6. Christ is truly present in the Eucharist! You can’t receive Christ in the Eucharist at a Protestant denomination.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Actually, I am still a Catholic - meaning I haven’t officially resigned from the Roman Catholic Church (here in Austria one doesn’t only have to resign in the diocese, but also by state it’s required to officially resign “secular” in the town hall, because the Catholic Churche is a state religion here. - Unlike the US, as I got to know here in CAF).

I have been searching for the Jesus of the Bible and a “ancient Christian community” for 8 years now. In 2009 I finally found it for me in a Baptist Church (Although it’s called Free-evangelical Church and not Baptist Church; but they are Baptists believing in giving one’s life to Jesus and the Credo Baptism, as well as sola scriptura etc.).
On my search I have quite thorougly studied the Scriptures of the LDS and was even for quite a time in Email contact with a Mormon minister. So it is definitely the case that I do have some Mormon believes, especially because some believes of them are not destinctivly Mormon but Protestant and they do have some things in common with the Baptists IMO.
Later on then I realized that the LDS are not really Christians, or at least only partly.

So I moved on to the Community of Christ and also got in Email contact with ministers of them.
I just like the BoM somehow. It is not really a typical Mormon book, but a Christian one, to be more accurate, I think it’s a Baptist book.
The CofC D&C are (except of the first 107 sections; and that’s also only a selection of the LDS D&C; as the LDS Church has 138 (+2)) very different from the LDS version.
I know that the BoM is not an historic account of the ancestors of the Native Americans, but a “sort of catechism” from the 19th century. And the newer parts of the CofC Edition of the D&C (meaning from section 108 to 164) are more “pastoral letters” and protocols of leadership meetings.

Well, yes, that’s were I am coming from. So I am not a Mormon (LDS) nor a member of the Community of Christ. - Although I sympatisize with the latter.

in Christ,

Esdra,
So, you are officially Catholic, but attend a Free-evangelical Baptist Church; you reject the Deuterocanonical Books, but like the Book of Mormon and believe it is a “Baptist book”; and you sympathize with a Mormon sect called Community of Christ? That’s complicated.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Nicea325]

Esdra,
So, you are officially Catholic, but attend a Free-evangelical Baptist Church; you reject the Deuterocanonical Books, but like the Book of Mormon and believe it is a “Baptist book”; and you sympathize with a Mormon sect called Community of Christ? That’s complicated.

Peace,
Anna

It is not complicated at all,she is just one confused person.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It is not complicated at all,she is just one confused person.

Nicea,
I know what it is like to be confused. I’ve been there myself.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Esdra]

It is not complicated at all,she is just one confused person.

HE! Please, not She.
You are not the first one who thinks that Esdra is female.
No, it’s a male name, derived from Esdras (out of the deuterocanon: do you remember 1st and 2nd Esdras?) - The problem is that Esdras is already used in this forum, although he is seldom online.

I am not confused. I am simply interested in nearly everything. I am a Baptist with all of my heart. - But doesn’t mean that I am not allowed to read other “sacred scripture”, does it?
I am free to believe what I want and read what I want etc. - And that’s great, IMO!

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
So, you are officially Catholic, but attend a Free-evangelical Baptist Church; you reject the Deuterocanonical Books, but like the Book of Mormon and believe it is a “Baptist book”; and you sympathize with a Mormon sect called Community of Christ? That’s complicated.

Peace,
Anna

Yes, it is complicated. I think you can say that. I think I’m in general a complicated person - some people even lable me crazy! But I don’t mind. I’m going my way.

Well, yes I have quite a history behind me, not only in searching Jesus…

And it’s getting even more complicated: Before I started searching for Jesus and a Church which is most similar to what I believe to be the “Ancient Christians” (at that time I didn’t give one thought that the CC is the “Ancient Christian Church”!),
I believed in many gods. I was most fascinated by Seth, the Egyptian god and lord over the desert, but also other gods. - I was in general very interested in mythology. (strangly enough not so in the Germanic Gods…)
It’s a pitty that hardly nobody can read and understand German, because I’ve even written a “catechism” if you want so about my “own religion”. I’ll give you link, maybe somebody here CAN understand German then you can read it.

I think I can understand people calling me crazy! lol