Wrong emphasis in same-sex marriage?

[camkutz]

And to be honest I find it absolutely disgraceful again, let me reiterate, that you’re discussing this topic in such an insensitive, uncharitable way. There are many same-sex attracted Catholics on this forum probably and a lot in the Church who are struggling to come to terms with their attraction, including myself, who struggle and try their best to carry the cross we’ve been given to be openly condemned as if we are animals.

Please do not deny this because if you wanted to make acting on same-sex attractions illegal, as mentioned in my first post you should make getting drunk illegal, close down all clubs, make it illegal for shops to be open on Sundays, make it illegal to use contraception and have pre-marital sex. But you’re singling out this one thing and dubbing it with your “conservatism”. Yes acting on same-sex attractions are sinful, yes we all most probably agree with you on that but for the sake of charity tone down on what you are saying because it all sounds like homophobic conspiracy.

A mortal sin IS a mortal sin regardless of what it is, stop trying to make this as if it’s the number one worst sin in the world. Also saying that let’s make atheism illegal if we are to follow your logic too because hey, it’s wrong isn’t it???

 

[at9009]

I’m not Rosebud77 and can’t speak on her behalf, but to me
“coming out” ? What a stress to put on folk.

would refer to pressure being put on LGBT/SSA people to come out, not merely permitting them to do so if they wish.

I wasn’t trying to pressure anyone to come out. I’m still closeted. I was just saying that its not a better solution to not come out at times. It’s just different problems and gives me a lot of stress. I didn’t think I gave the impression one must come put, if it came off like that, it was not my intention.

 

[Peter_J]

I wasn’t trying to pressure anyone to come out. I’m still closeted. I was just saying that its not a better solution to not come out at times. It’s just different problems and gives me a lot of stress. I didn’t think I gave the impression one must come put, if it came off like that, it was not my intention.

Fwiw, you didn’t give that impression – well, not me anyhow.

 

[Peter_J]

What I find abhorrent about this is people CHOOSE to be racists and show racist behaviour. People don’t CHOOSE to have same-sex attractions and don’t CHOOSE to have effeminate behaviour. Do you think people would choose to be bullied at school? To be killed and thrown off roofs in middle eastern countries? Do you know how hard it can be for some people with SSA do you think they CHOOSE that life? Regardless if they act on it or not sexual orientation is a lot different than being a racist. Regardless of the nature or nurture argument gay people don’t choose to be gay as straight people don’t choose to be straight.

Fwiw, I think that there are a great many conservatives, myself included, who would be equally troubled by the stuff that has been posted here. Hell, this thread started with a push for making homosexual acts illegal, but now it has actually moved to a push to make coming out of the closet illegal. I don’t know if I even want to know what will come next.

 

[Qoeleth]

What I find abhorrent about this is people CHOOSE to be racists and show racist behaviour. People don’t CHOOSE to have same-sex attractions and don’t CHOOSE to have effeminate behaviour. Do you think people would choose to be bullied at school? To be killed and thrown off roofs in middle eastern countries? Do you know how hard it can be for some people with SSA do you think they CHOOSE that life? Regardless if they act on it or not sexual orientation is a lot different than being a racist. Regardless of the nature or nurture argument gay people don’t choose to be gay as straight people don’t choose to be straight.

It is not true that people “choose” to be racists. There are people who, for example, might non want to be racist- but find that certain prejudices remain subconsciously in them. For example, they might wake up one day, and realise that all their friends are the same race as themselves- or that they never sit next to a person of a different race on a bus, and then realize “I am actually racist- although I didn’t meant to be.”

Similarly, I imagine with gays. Presumably they didn’t wake up one thinking, “I’ll choose to be gay”, but one day they realised the had no interest in the opposite sex. Yes, that is a Cross. But telling people about their struggles won’t make them easier (except maybe in confession, or spiritual direction, or to a counsellor)- in fact, it may make it worse, since then it could hurt their relationship with family, friends, etc., as well as labelling themselves (and forcing others to label them) on the basis of orientation. How can this be helpful to them?

 

[at9009]

Similarly, I imagine with gays. Presumably they didn’t wake up one thinking, “I’ll choose to be gay”, but one day they realised the had no interest in the opposite sex. Yes, that is a Cross. But telling people about their struggles won’t make them easier (except maybe in confession, or spiritual direction, or to a counsellor)- in fact, it may make it worse, since then it could hurt their relationship with family, friends, etc., as well as labelling themselves (and forcing others to label them) on the basis of orientation. How can this be helpful to them?

Might be helpful to get some perspective from actual gay/ssa Christians rather than assuming what is best for them and what their experiences are. Here are some articles from same sex attracted Christians ((two of which are Catholic and far more eloquent than me) that might give you some perspective (all hold to a traditional sexual ethic).

spiritualfriendship.org/2014/01/27/on-coming-out-and-being-known/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/06/15/on-coming-out/
spiritualfriendship.org/2016/10/11/coming-out/

 

[drac16]

And to be honest I find it absolutely disgraceful again, let me reiterate, that you’re discussing this topic in such an insensitive, uncharitable way. There are many same-sex attracted Catholics on this forum probably and a lot in the Church who are struggling to come to terms with their attraction, including myself, who struggle and try their best to carry the cross we’ve been given to be openly condemned as if we are animals.
**
Please do not deny this because if you wanted to make acting on same-sex attractions illegal, as mentioned in my first post you should make getting drunk illegal, close down all clubs, make it illegal for shops to be open on Sundays, make it illegal to use contraception and have pre-marital sex. But you’re singling out this one thing and dubbing it with your “conservatism”. Yes acting on same-sex attractions are sinful, yes we all most probably agree with you on that but for the sake of charity tone down on what you are saying because it all sounds like homophobic conspiracy.**

A mortal sin IS a mortal sin regardless of what it is, stop trying to make this as if it’s the number one worst sin in the world. Also saying that let’s make atheism illegal if we are to follow your logic too because hey, it’s wrong isn’t it???

Ah yes, I see a lack of consistency, too. There are worse things than homosexuality, so we should not treat homosexuality if it’s the worst sin. Moreover, homosexuals are not hopeless people and we should approach them with grace and love.

I don’t believe that a gay guy that comes to my mosque is somehow worse than a guy that comes to the mosque and has a porn habit. Judging by how common pornography is, I can almost guarantee that some of the brothers in the mosque are involved in it, but they are welcome to come and should not be harassed because of their sin. Shouldn’t we treat homosexuals the same way? (i.e. treated with the same level of compassion)

 

[Peter_J]

Ah yes, I see a lack of consistency, too. There are worse things than homosexuality, so we should not treat homosexuality if it’s the worst sin. Moreover, homosexuals are not hopeless people and we should approach them with grace and love.

I don’t believe that a gay guy that comes to my mosque is somehow worse than a guy that comes to the mosque and has a porn habit. Judging by how common pornography is, I can almost guarantee that some of the brothers in the mosque are involved in it, but they are welcome to come and should not be harassed because of their sin. Shouldn’t we treat homosexuals the same way? (i.e. treated with the same level of compassion)

Good post.

This thread only recently got into the push to ban people from coming out of the closet, but from the beginning I found it to be a troubling thread. Why? Because its foundation was “to campaign to make homosexual acts criminal” – note that does not say “to campaign to make homosexual acts, all other sodomy, and fornication, criminal” even though those are all proscribed by Catholic moral teaching.

I’m reminded of a reflection I once read about John 8: the scribes and Pharisees brought to Jesus a woman caught in adultery … but if you read between the lines, they must have let the male adulterer go!

 

[Lea101]

And, for the record, telling a LGBT person from a country with anti-LGBT laws that anti-LGBT laws are a terrific idea, and that witchhunts “don’t happen”, and that even those in favor of such laws are going to be mindful and non-abusive, does you no good.
I know better. I live your dream. And it’s my nightmare.

So sorry to hear that, I hope you will stay safe!

 

[Tagetes]

So sorry to hear that, I hope you will stay safe!

I’m trying to. As I’m celibate and closeted, I’m having it easier than others, though, as I’ve already mentioned in another thread, people guess.

By the way. Just because I’m celibate for religious reasons doesn’t mean I think that everyone must be. I have non-Catholic and, consequently, non-celibate LGBT friends/good acquaintances/people I respect, and I will defend them until the very end. It’s their informed choice, it’s their souls, not mine. Not my business. And come on. Someone here really believes that, if outlawed, LGBT people will be treated with christlike compassion? Nope! Even nominal Christians can get very cruel, and what about homophobic non-Christians/non-religious people? I’ve seen it. As soon as hatred towards LGBT was governmentally greenlit, it began. Raider attacks on clandestine invitation-only LGBT events? Check. Homophobes pretending to be potential dates on LGBT dating sites, and beating a gay person up, once they showed up? Check. Firing people for their suspect orientation, firing people for their support, charging people with enormous fines for their support, bullying, cyberbullying, death threats, physical violence threats, actually beating people up to death? Check all.

Look at Britain. Brexit legitimized xenophobic tendencies and those having those tendencies had no reason to pretend anymore. Haven’t any of you seen the signs telling “EU vermin” to get out? A Pole was murdered for speaking Polish. A Pole. A Slav. A white man, by the US standards.

So, people who want to (re)criminalize homosexuality. I’m not talking to the OP, I already see that it’s useless, no matter how many arguments we all present, but some other users have expressed agreement. You want to be responsible for the lifelong aversion to Jesus Christ? Go ahead. It happened here. Though the bill was introduced and voted for by the secular government, it was praised by the country’s most influential Christian denomination (which is not the Catholic Church). As a result, people, who were neutral about or even somewhat inclined towards Christianity, decided against it, forever. Again, for cradle Catholics, who don’t remember being anything else, this might be difficult to imagine, but I testify as a convert, that the decision to follow Jesus may take years of soul-searching and self-doubt. Now these people will never be Christians, because they’ve come to associate Christ’s name with fear of imprisonment, injuries and death.

 

[Qoeleth]

Ah yes, I see a lack of consistency, too. There are worse things than homosexuality, so we should not treat homosexuality if it’s the worst sin. Moreover, homosexuals are not hopeless people and we should approach them with grace and love.

I don’t believe that a gay guy that comes to my mosque is somehow worse than a guy that comes to the mosque and has a porn habit. Judging by how common pornography is, I can almost guarantee that some of the brothers in the mosque are involved in it, but they are welcome to come and should not be harassed because of their sin. Shouldn’t we treat homosexuals the same way? (i.e. treated with the same level of compassion)

Good post.

This thread only recently got into the push to ban people from coming out of the closet, but from the beginning I found it to be a troubling thread. Why? Because its foundation was “to campaign to make homosexual acts criminal” – note that does not say “to campaign to make homosexual acts, all other sodomy, and fornication, criminal” even though those are all proscribed by Catholic moral teaching.

I’m reminded of a reflection I once read about John 8: the scribes and Pharisees brought to Jesus a woman caught in adultery … but if you read between the lines, they must have let the male adulterer go!

There is no inconsistency.

Naturally, all forms of degrading behaviours should be, or already are, illegal. This includes sodomy of all kinds (which is already illegal), pedophilia (ditto), bestiality (ditto), incest (ditto). There are all prohibited in the same chapters of the Bible. Pornography and prostitution should be illegal (prostitution, theoretically at least, is illegal, and pornography is a form of prostitution).

One particular form of deviant behaviour (homosexuality) is trying to get itself socially and legally acceptable. That is the problem.

 

[Qoeleth]

There is no inconsistency.

Naturally, all forms of degrading behaviours should be, or already are, illegal. This includes sodomy of all kinds (which is already illegal), pedophilia (ditto), bestiality (ditto), incest (ditto). There are all prohibited in the same chapters of the Bible. Pornography and prostitution should be illegal (prostitution, theoretically at least, is illegal, and pornography is a form of prostitution).

One particular form of deviant behaviour (homosexuality) is trying to get itself socially and legally acceptable. That is the problem.

I should clarify- I’m not saying all those things are equally bad, and don’t wish to seem prejudiced in anyway. We’re all human beings, that God want to save…

The bottom line is that somehow, homosexuality, divorce, ‘co-habitation’, etc. should never have become ‘normal’, or ‘acceptable’. How this state of affairs is to be reversed, I don’t know exactly. There is a need, somehow, to restore the God-ordained human social order…Maybe prayer is the best answer to this problem…

But if we in the West don’t somehow restore our public morality, in accordance with God’s law, what will happen next? We can’t surviving in the long term as we are now…Right at the moment, it is clear that the very foundations of the West are pretty shaky, like Rome in its last days…

 

[jjr9]

I should clarify- I’m not saying all those things are equally bad, and don’t wish to seem prejudiced in anyway. We’re all human beings, that God want to save…

The bottom line is that somehow, homosexuality, divorce, ‘co-habitation’, etc. should never have become ‘normal’, or ‘acceptable’. How this state of affairs is to be reversed, I don’t know exactly. There is a need, somehow, to restore the God-ordained human social order…Maybe prayer is the best answer to this problem…

But if we in the West don’t somehow restore our public morality, in accordance with God’s law, what will happen next? We can’t surviving in the long term as we are now…Right at the moment, it is clear that the very foundations of the West are pretty shaky, like Rome in its last days…

Do you have something of substance that sustains your belief that the mythical “homosexual
person” is real?

God bless

 

[Lou2U]

Though, people today a generally aware enough not to pursue questions like “Why aren’t you married?”, etc. Being homosexual is not the only answer- some people don’t feel called to it, may be ‘married’ to their profession, etc., or simply don’t want to reproduce themselves. They might be from unhappy homes an not ‘believe’ in marriage (at least not for themselves). Or they might be thinking about becoming a priest, etc.

The topic of ‘sex’ is not avoidable altogether, but for good reasons, should always be treated with a certain reserve. Given the Church’s teaching that homosexuals should not act out their desires, it seems to make perfect sense (for everyone) that they are simply treated this reserve, and not mentioned.

So if a homosexual couple were introduced to you, would you consider this as them “mentioning” their sexuality? Would you feel the same if it were a heterosexual couple?

Lou

 

[Lou2U]

Do you have something of substance that sustains your belief that the mythical “homosexual
person” is real?

God bless

What do you mean by this? If you mean “can people be exclusively attracted to the same sex”, then the CC says:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.

And then there’s the thought that if people can define themselves as exclusively heterosexual, why can’t it be that people also define themselves as exclusively homosexual?

Lou

 

[at9009]

What do you mean by this? If you mean “can people be exclusively attracted to the same sex”, then the CC says:

And then there’s the thought that if people can define themselves as exclusively heterosexual, why can’t it be that people also define themselves as exclusively homosexual?

Lou

That poster believes that the Catechism and the Church is in the wrong and in error by saying a person could experience exclusive same sex attraction from my understanding of their perspective.

They seem to believe that is not possible and want some kind of evidence to support it or something. Here is the their forum post (that gives their perspective) to read at your leisure if you want: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=966418.

 

[Qoeleth]

Do you have something of substance that sustains your belief that the mythical “homosexual
person” is real?

God bless

That poster believes that the Catechism and the Church is in the wrong and in error by saying a person could experience exclusive same sex attraction from my understanding of their perspective.

They seem to believe that is not possible and want some kind of evidence to support it or something. Here is the their forum post (that gives their perspective) to read at your leisure if you want: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=966418.

Reference to something in the teaching documents of the Church does not make it a ‘doctrine of Faith’, or even a ‘Church teaching’, so it is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to believe that the ‘homosexual person’ is a myth. The role of the Catechism is not to teach anthropology, and if it makes reference to anthropological beliefs that are generally accepted, it does not make these thing “Church teachings”.

I agree that fixedly homosexual persons must be rare. Granted, in very rare cases a hormonal balance or something might cause it (like people of physiologically ambiguous gender), but in many cases, isn’t it a result of psychological or social factors.

In this sense, it could well be a myth…

 

[at9009]

Reference to something in the teaching documents of the Church does not make it a ‘doctrine of Faith’, or even a ‘Church teaching’, so it is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to believe that the ‘homosexual person’ is a myth. The role of the Catechism is not to teach anthropology, and if it makes reference to anthropological beliefs that are generally accepted, it does not make these thing “Church teachings”.

I agree that fixedly homosexual persons must be rare. Granted, in very rare cases a hormonal balance or something might cause it (like people of physiologically ambiguous gender), but in many cases, isn’t it a result of psychological or social factors.

In this sense, it could well be a myth…

Wasn’t commenting on the person’s opinion one way or the other. That topic just has lead to threads being re-directed to that discussion multiple times so I was trying to avoid that by offering the other poster a reference to the original argument that was made.

We don’t know the cause of same sex attraction yet you think you can assert that it must be rare for it to be static for some people? I guess the testimonies of celibate Christians who deal with this issue and haven’t had a change in their sexuality are misleading? Define rare: does that mean 1% of population, 1% of cases all gay/ssa people? Because 1% of the population would be 70 million people (so still small considering the world population but not inconsequential).

Minor soapbox distraction from the thread
It is extremely frustrating to read people constantly intellectualize this topic as if they are experts on it when there are celibate Christians, myself included, on this forum and our own testimonies and experiences are basically dismissed. So unless I’m some special unicorn, haven’t had a change in my sexuality and have never experienced opposite sex attraction, it doesn’t really matter if others think I’m a ‘myth.’ It doesn’t deny the reality I experience exclusive same sex attraction which is my call to a celibate life.

I haven’t turned my life over from God, I don’t have an abuse parental relationship, I wasn’t bad at sports, wasn’t sexually abused, wasn’t bullied about being gay as child, didn’t sexually experiment as child, or any of the other social tropes that are thrown out there as causes yet only same sex attracted and no inkling of opposite sex sexual attraction. Instead this cross is a manifestation of the fall that contributes to the cross I carry. Can God change me? Sure just as he could cure a person’s cancer, make a blind man see, a amputee grow their limb back. However, often that isn’t within His Will. Doesn’t mean I’m not able to still live an honorable life that is glorifying to him despite being a ‘mythical homosexual person.’ I guess I’m just the mythical unicorn then I guess: a gay/ssa celibate Catholic.
**Steps off soapbox **

 

[Rau]

…it is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to believe that the ‘homosexual person’ is a myth.

The phrase “homosexual person” means “a person who experiences same sex attraction (predominantly or exclusively)”. If one wishes to assert that no such person exists, so be it, but that seems to be at odds with a great deal of contrary evidence, some of which comes from people we know, and some from faithful Catholics, including here on CAF.

As for whether or not there exists persons who experience attraction “exclusively” to the same sex, bear in mind that this “exclusivity” does not need to be understood to mean “permanently” exclusive. What the Church teaches about homosexuality in no way relies on a suggestion that the experience of these attractions (be they exclusive or not) is permanent.

I agree that fixedly homosexual persons must be rare.

Rare relative to the entire population, or rare relative to those experiencing same sex attraction? And what constitutes rare? Your statement seems speculative.

Granted, in very rare cases a hormonal balance or something might cause it (like people of physiologically ambiguous gender), but in many cases, isn’t it a result of psychological or social factors.

There is not yet a solid or widely accepted explanation for the phenomena, though threads of evidence for the role of particular factors (including some of a biological nature) exist. * The Church professes no expertise in the cause, and the cause has no bearing on what is taught - that sexual acts between persons of the same sex are wrong.*

 

[Rau]

…It is extremely frustrating to read people constantly intellectualize this topic as if they are experts on it when there are celibate Christians, myself included, on this forum and our own testimonies and experiences are basically dismissed. So unless I’m some special unicorn, haven’t had a change in my sexuality and have never experienced opposite sex attraction, it doesn’t really matter if others think I’m a ‘myth.’ It doesn’t deny the reality I experience exclusive same sex attraction which is my call to a celibate life.

In my experience here on CAF, some Catholics are “disturbed” by the idea that same sex attraction may have an etiology from within the person, as opposed to some external and passing influence. They have a need to declare that the cause must be external - childhood issues, psychological issues, etc. and can’t be (even in part) something from within. I suspect the idea of “exclusive” SSA evokes this notion that the cause lies within the person. This is speculation on my part of course - those rejecting out of hand the idea of some cause/contributing factor from within have not explained their aversion to that idea.