Wrong man executed in Texas (1989)

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Fear of punishment has never been a worthwhile deterrent to committing a murder. …
Deterrence is not the only purpose for punishment, capital or otherwise.

“Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of them have ever been held accountable.
 
Which is why I don’t care how much it costs, I am all for 3 strikes.
When people try to point out the “cost” I usually ask them to consider the “cost” of letting these people run free.

I know of a woman that faced charges in two states and five counties for credit card fraud, forgery, theft by deception, grand theft auto and child abuse - at least 11 different felony charges - all crimes that happened in an 18 month span (the last time she was in jail) . Every single county that charged her also convicted her but let her off with probation. She’s been back on the streets since February. Since that time she’s been repeating the exact same crimes. Currently she’s wanted for over $300,000 in theft and damages - all costs bore by individual taxpayers. Wouldn’t it have been cheaper to put her in prison for a couple years?
 
I do not understand why people want capital sentences, and life without parole. :confused:

I think that there is nothing fundamentally wrong in releasing a man from prison independently of the crime committed. I think that there can be something fundamentally wrong on why such a man would be released and how such a man would be treated in prison.

I believe in a much harder prison lifestyle and in the opportunity of redemption. I see that people in prison can have relatively easy lives while still loosing their dignity as individuals, that is fundamentally wrong.
Let me explain further. I am not opposed in principle to parole. I don’t believe that prisons should be so harsh as to make rehabilitation impossible. Prisoners should be rehabilitated if possible, and if they are no longer a threat to society, parole ought to be a possibility. Besides, incarceration is prohibitively expensive.

But before parole is considered, the prisoner should have reached the stage of rehabilitation that a Catholic might call contrition for sins and purpose of amendment. One cannot endanger society again by paroling someone who will kill again.

I personally know of a family whose daughter was killed by a serial date killer. He dated women and killed them. If I recall, there about four or five women. Their daughter was one of them. He offered to tell where to find her body if he could get a favorable deal from the prosecutor. The prosecutor was not about to offer a favorable deal to a serial killer. So, they never found the girl’s body even though he could have told them at any time. He received four consecutive life sentences, and remains arrogant and unrepentant. He keeps coming up for parole. Victims’ families make trips to the prison to testify against it; it is not an easy thing.

And once the sentence is imposed, the court has no further jurisdiction. It is the Dept of Corrections which determines whether or not he will be paroled. In order to seek a life sentence with no possibility of parole, the legal requirements are much more difficult to meet, almost as hard as trying to obtain a death sentence, which I oppose, at least in my state, because of the expense, and even if imposed, will likely never be carried out before twenty years due to mandatory appeals.

And I note that in California, Charles Manson just came up for a parole hearing for something like the fourth time. He shows no signs of repentance whatever. What’s the point?
 
Tue.
But this is true of capital punishment as well.

In the long run, all the death does is prevent the criminal from being able to commit another crime.
If we could accomplish that particular feat without the bloodshed, why wouldn’t we?
Which when I read CCC is what it seems to be saying. Capital punishment only in very rare, if not non existent cases where it is not possible by other means to prevent another crime.

The thing is today we have the means of life in prison. It shouldn’t matter the cost to provide for a prisoner. That may be the price we need to pay not to play God. Though I can see the point made by Luigi Daniele of providing a spartan life.

But because there is this chance juries and judges can be wrong and the wrong person put to death, I personallty could never support the state playing God. Too late then if the wrong person has been put to death. Where at least with prison the person wronged could be released. 2 wrongs in this case does not make a right.

There are also the matters of turning the other cheek, forgiveness and mercy and rehabilitation to consider. As with many issues everything is not always black and white fitting neatly into a box.

But what I don’t understand is why so many conservative Catholics who otherwise purport themselves to be faithful seem to appear to be for the death penalty in far more cases than CCC seems to describe.
 
… What’s the point?
There was a scene in the Clark Gable version of Mutiny on the Bounty in which a sailor was flogged for disrespect to Captain Bligh. Halfway through the punishment, the executioner reported, “Captain, the prisoner is dead.” Bligh replied, “The sentence was ___ lashes. Continue with the punishment.”
 
Which when I read CCC is what it seems to be saying. Capital punishment only in very rare, if not non existent cases where it is not possible by other means to prevent another crime.
The other means being permanent incarceration, though.
 
It isn’t just the cost of incarceration. The cost of seeking a life sentence without possibility of parole, at least in my state, is substantially higher than merely seeking a life sentence. The legal hurdles are harder, the attorney time is longer, the standards are more stringent. In the vast majority of cases, the prosecution will opt for a simple prosecution seeking a life sentence, because seeking a life-without-parole sentence isn’t worth the additional cost.

And the cost of prosecuting a murder as a capital case is even more costly. It is seldom sought except in the most egregious cases. The most recent case I recall in this state is of the Carr brothers who were convicted of killing four people in cold blood after spending the night sexually abusing them. The state did end up with a conviction and a sentence of death, but I think it was a mistake to do so. They will be in prison at least twenty years before the appeals are exhausted, and probably longer. By then, the death penalty may be repealed.

The BTK killer who killed many over a series of years, did not get the death penalty, nor was it sought, because the crimes were committed at a time when there was not a death penalt in effect. He got a life sentence, and even with the possibility of parole, he will likely die of old age before the first parole hearing comes up.

I have no problem with the Church’s position on the death penalty, except this: To merely state that one can always incarcerate someone without parole is a lot easier to say than it is to attempt in practice. In practice it is expensive, litigious, time consuming, and more difficult than simply seeking a plain vanilla life sentence.
 
That may be the price we need to pay not to play God.
The Church even today recognizes the right of States to employ capital punishment; this has never been considered “playing God.”
There are also the matters of turning the other cheek, forgiveness and mercy and rehabilitation to consider.
Rehabilitation, like protection and deterrence, is one of the valid but secondary objectives of punishment. The primary objective is retribution, which the State has a duty to impose. The obligation of the individual is to forgive but the obligation of the State is to punish.
But what I don’t understand is why so many conservative Catholics who otherwise purport themselves to be faithful seem to appear to be for the death penalty in far more cases than CCC seems to describe.
It is a matter of justice and justice requires that the punishment imposed be of commensurate severity with the severity of the crime, and for the crime of murder we have been told explicitly what that commensurate punishment is: the life of a murderer is forfeit.

Ender
 
Maybe its just me but I still haven’t read anything that “proves” the wrong man was executed.
 
The Church even today recognizes the right of States to employ capital punishment; this has never been considered “playing God.”
Rehabilitation, like protection and deterrence, is one of the valid but secondary objectives of punishment. The primary objective is retribution, which the State has a duty to impose. The obligation of the individual is to forgive but the obligation of the State is to punish.
It is a matter of justice and justice requires that the punishment imposed be of commensurate severity with the severity of the crime, and for the crime of murder we have been told explicitly what that commensurate punishment is: the life of a murderer is forfeit.

Ender
And, if the man was innocent, then what? Support for the death penalty ought to take a hit then.

Sure, you are free to support it, but more and more people see it as the barbarism it always was, and are pleased to see its use being abolished more and more in, at least, the civilized world.
 
In regards to what?

A man was convicted of a crime and said someone else did it. In case you didn’t know it, that’s pretty common.
Oh, dear, oh. dear… As a one-time, though for a short time, criminal defense attorney, I didn’t know that. 🤷
 
The Church even today recognizes the right of States to employ capital punishment; this has never been considered “playing God.”
Rehabilitation, like protection and deterrence, is one of the valid but secondary objectives of punishment. The primary objective is retribution, which the State has a duty to impose. The obligation of the individual is to forgive but the obligation of the State is to punish.
It is a matter of justice and justice requires that the punishment imposed be of commensurate severity with the severity of the crime, and for the crime of murder we have been told explicitly what that commensurate punishment is: the life of a murderer is forfeit.

Ender
CCC recognizes it only in very rare if not non-existent cases.

From CCC 2267 “Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

In regard to eye for an eye, see Matt 5:38-39 where Jesus says you may have heard that.
 
It isn’t just the cost of incarceration. The cost of seeking a life sentence without possibility of parole, at least in my state, is substantially higher than merely seeking a life sentence. The legal hurdles are harder, the attorney time is longer, the standards are more stringent. In the vast majority of cases, the prosecution will opt for a simple prosecution seeking a life sentence, because seeking a life-without-parole sentence isn’t worth the additional cost.

And the cost of prosecuting a murder as a capital case is even more costly. It is seldom sought except in the most egregious cases. The most recent case I recall in this state is of the Carr brothers who were convicted of killing four people in cold blood after spending the night sexually abusing them. The state did end up with a conviction and a sentence of death, but I think it was a mistake to do so. They will be in prison at least twenty years before the appeals are exhausted, and probably longer. By then, the death penalty may be repealed.

The BTK killer who killed many over a series of years, did not get the death penalty, nor was it sought, because the crimes were committed at a time when there was not a death penalt in effect. He got a life sentence, and even with the possibility of parole, he will likely die of old age before the first parole hearing comes up.

I have no problem with the Church’s position on the death penalty, except this: To merely state that one can always incarcerate someone without parole is a lot easier to say than it is to attempt in practice. In practice it is expensive, litigious, time consuming, and more difficult than simply seeking a plain vanilla life sentence.
 
It isn’t just the cost of incarceration. The cost of seeking a life sentence without possibility of parole, at least in my state, is substantially higher than merely seeking a life sentence.
There we go again with cost. I still don’t believe it should matter when we’re talking about people’s lives.
 
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