WSJ: Whatever Happened to Global Warming?

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Looks Like the rest of the world is available for farming
Yes, but why wasn’t the amount of needed farmland also marked on the map? Maybe because it simply would not fit?
Farming Claims Almost Half Earth’s Land, New Maps Show
James Owen
for National Geographic News
December 9, 2005

Food production takes up almost half of the planet’s land surface and threatens to consume the fertile land that still remains, scientists warn.

…]

The maps suggest that an area roughly the size of South America is used for crop production, while even more land—7.9 to 8.9 billion acres (3.2 to 3.6 billion hectares)—is being used to raise livestock.
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1209_051209_crops_map.html

So, there – yes, you could fit everyone inside Texas, but you’d still need to use 50% of the planet’s surface to grow food which would then be shipped to Texas.
 
Well, you know when ideologues are starting to loose control of the narrative when they start taking about using naked force to crush dissent. Exhibit A: A writer for Gawker calling for the arrest of global warming deniers: gawker.com/arrest-climate-change-deniers-1553719888
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is pushing the same thing. From your link; * “Man-made climate change kills a lot of people. It’s going to kill a lot more. We have laws on the books to punish anyone whose lies contribute to people’s deaths.** It’s time to punish the climate-change liars.”** * How frightening is that? I see a similar pattern in how they deal with those who refuse to accept homosexuality. You’re branded a bigot, a homophobe, a hater. You’ll have two choices; either join “us” or we will ruin you. The left describe themselves as tolerant. Yeah…right. Tell that to Brendan Eich, founder and CEO of Mozilla, who was forced to resign!

Peace, Mark
 
Well, you know when ideologues are starting to loose control of the narrative when they start taking about using naked force to crush dissent. Exhibit A: A writer for Gawker calling for the arrest of global warming deniers: gawker.com/arrest-climate-change-deniers-1553719888
Interesting article.

Starts by talking about how seismologists in Italy were imprisoned for caving to political pressures and falsely telling people in L’Aquila there was nothing to worry about, when in fact they knew a dangerous earthquake may be coming soon, and it did come and killed 309. Then he goes on to say how much worse the PAID and PROFITEERING climate change skeptic industry is (and in my books they are orders of magnitude worse).

Quote:
"Let’s make a clear distinction here: I’m not talking about the man on the street who thinks Rush Limbaugh is right, and climate change is a socialist United Nations conspiracy foisted by a Muslim U.S. president on an unwitting public to erode its civil liberties…Nor am I talking about simple skeptics, particularly the scientists who must constantly hypo-test our existing assumptions about the world in order to check their accuracy…

But there is scientific skepticism… and there is a malicious, profiteering quietist agenda posturing as skepticism. There is uncertainty about whether man-made climate change can be stopped or reversed… and there is the body of purulent pundits, paid sponsors, and corporate grifters who exploit the smallest uncertainty at the edges of a settled science.

I’m talking about Rush and his multi-million-dollar ilk in the disinformation business. I’m talking about Americans for Prosperity and the businesses and billionaires who back its obfuscatory propaganda. I’m talking about public persons and organizations and corporations for whom denying a fundamental scientific fact is profitable, who encourage the acceleration of an anti-environment course of unregulated consumption and production that, frankly, will [bleep] my son and your children and whatever progeny they manage to have.

Those malcontents must be punished and stopped.

Deniers will, of course, fuss and stomp and beat their breasts and claim this is persecution, this is a violation of free speech. Of course, they already say that now, when judges force them into doing penance for comparing climate scientists to child-rapist and denial poster-boy Jerry Sandusky.

But First Amendment rights have never been absolute. You still can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater. You shouldn’t be able to yell “balderdash” at 10,883 scientific journal articles a year, all saying the same thing: This is a problem, and we should take some preparations for when it becomes a bigger problem…
 
Scientists always ask “why?”. It’s their job to find out why things happen. For example they ask why does most of the heat go into the oceans. And they have found lots of explanations why that is happening. Every day we find out more.
It really is important to distinguish between fact and conjecture, and the assertion that the “missing” heat has been absorbed by the oceans is conjecture. Nor is it accurate to assert that scientists have found “lots of explanations”. What they have are a number of guesses about how this might happen.
I think you are still at the stage where you don’t know that the oceans are warming. We’ve known that for years.
Actually, it is the scientists who are at the stage of not knowing the oceans are warming for the simple fact that there are insufficient data to know otherwise. It is only since about 2004 with the deployment of the Argo buoys that there has been a way to measure deep ocean (2000m) temperatures with something approaching thoroughness. Before that the information was inadequate to take an informed position. Graphs going back to the 1960s are just guesses based on insufficient information.

Ender
 
Interesting article.

Starts by talking about how seismologists in Italy were imprisoned for caving to political pressures and falsely telling people in L’Aquila there was nothing to worry about, when in fact they knew a dangerous earthquake may be coming soon, and it did come and killed 309. Then he goes on to say how much worse the PAID and PROFITEERING climate change skeptic industry is (and in my books they are orders of magnitude worse).
You have to show deliberate fraud and malice, not just “these guys draw a paycheck”. And remember, it’s climate change agitators that have been resisting Freedom of Information requests to look at their data.
 
It really is important to distinguish between fact and conjecture, and the assertion that the “missing” heat has been absorbed by the oceans is conjecture. Nor is it accurate to assert that scientists have found “lots of explanations”. What they have are a number of guesses about how this might happen.
Actually, it is the scientists who are at the stage of not knowing the oceans are warming for the simple fact that there are insufficient data to know otherwise. It is only since about 2004 with the deployment of the Argo buoys that there has been a way to measure deep ocean (2000m) temperatures with something approaching thoroughness. Before that the information was inadequate to take an informed position. Graphs going back to the 1960s are just guesses based on insufficient information.

Ender
Did you see this article from this week. latimes.com/science/la-sci-pacific-warming-20140923-story.html. This one postulates the warming of the ocean on the west coast is from weakening winds (rather than a strengthening of the “trade winds” as postulated before).
 
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is pushing the same thing. From your link; * “Man-made climate change kills a lot of people. It’s going to kill a lot more. We have laws on the books to punish anyone whose lies contribute to people’s deaths.** It’s time to punish the climate-change liars.”*** How frightening is that? I see a similar pattern in how they deal with those who refuse to accept homosexuality. You’re branded a bigot, a homophobe, a hater. You’ll have two choices; either join “us” or we will ruin you. The left describe themselves as tolerant. Yeah…right. Tell that to Brendan Eich, founder and CEO of Mozilla, who was forced to resign!

Peace, Mark
What would you propose doing about people who kill and incite to kill? Do we just remain silent and let them kill?

I don’t have answers myself, only questions. I don’t like imprisoning people, esp since our prison system is so extremely horrible. Maybe community service of some type, like something with alt energy or planting trees for professional CC skeptics who incite people to kill thru AGW 🙂

Maybe since it is all about money for those professional CC skeptics, hit them were it hurts with huge lawsuits that amount to more than the get from the fossil fuel industries.

As the article said, “You still can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. You shouldn’t be able to yell ‘balderdash’ at 10,883 scientific journal articles a year, all saying the same thing: This is a problem, and we should take some preparations for when it becomes a bigger problem.”

I’m not sure what the punishment or fine is for people who “yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater when there is no fire” that ends up in a stampede that kills people. Maybe something along the lines of that level of punishment, fine, or slap on wrist.
 
like something with alt energy or planting trees for professional CC skeptics who incite people to kill thru AGW
That is one bus-sized premise you are jumping over, Evel Knievel.
 
You have to show deliberate fraud and malice, not just “these guys draw a paycheck”. And remember, it’s climate change agitators that have been resisting Freedom of Information requests to look at their data.
That’s why I’m thinking civil rather than criminal, since civil only requires preponderance of evidence – don’t need much proof for motive and not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also they’d become martyrs for the skeptic movement, only leading to greater harms and deaths from AGW.

Hit them where it hurt the most – the pocket.

I think there probably are some egregious cases that could be tried successfully, that would hopefully serve as a deterrence for others, make them more circumspect and dissuade them from telling blatant lies that lead to harm and death. I’m convinced they know the truth, know how they are artfully twisting it in various ways, and purposely and deceitfully lie, without regard for human life or well-being.
 
Assuming sensitivity of 2C per CO2 doubling, and pre-industrial CO2 at 200ppm…

400ppm → +2C
800ppm → +4C
1600ppm → +6C
3200ppm → +8C

Earth’s total stock of fossil carbon is estimated at 5000ppm equivalent. So even under 2C sensitivity, a 6C warming requires only burning 1/3rd of carbon reserves.
Why should we make such an assumption? According to a new NASA paper, a doubling of CO2 from the current 390 ppm to 780 would lead to an increase of…1.64 deg C. If correct this means we could go a couple of centuries at the current rate of increase in CO2 without any dangerous warming at all. And surely in a couple of centuries time scientists will have resolved the problems of generating energy from fusion reactors.

Again, where’s the problem?

Ender*
*
 
These people supposedly killing people with AGW (How people say that with straight face is beyond me) have been around for a long time, and I think if the people gunning for them thought they had a case, they would have already sued by now. Like I said, the Climate Change agitators are the ones resisting FOI requests. I think they don’t pursue lawsuits because they couldn’t handle the scrutiny, or losing.
 
Did you see this article from this week. latimes.com/science/la-sci-pacific-warming-20140923-story.html. This one postulates the warming of the ocean on the west coast is from weakening winds (rather than a strengthening of the “trade winds” as postulated before).
Thank you; I had not seen this. This comment from Kevin Trenberth was interesting. He faulted the conclusions about the long-term trends, arguing that *“the quality of data from the early 20th century was poor and unreliable.” *While I have no doubt that the data from that far back is less accurate and complete than more modern observations, put his comment in the context of the assumptions made about deep ocean warming which is based on even more fragmentary data. Apparently it is only the quality of the other guys data that is a concern.

Ender
 
What would you propose doing about people who kill and incite to kill? Do we just remain silent and let them kill?

I don’t have answers myself, only questions. I don’t like imprisoning people, esp since our prison system is so extremely horrible. Maybe community service of some type, like something with alt energy or planting trees for professional CC skeptics who incite people to kill thru AGW
Interesting concept. Perhaps we should throw people in jail for inciting people to kill through mitigating AGW. Yes, I know that is the exact opposite of what you propose doing but it is no more (or less) irrational for me to insist that my opponents are evil, murderous swine than for you to do it. I wonder, though, what this would do to enrollment in science majors in college knowing that you could be arrested and punished if the results of your research were politically incorrect?

If you want to put a face on zealotry and intolerance you don’t have to go to the Middle East to find one. Robert F. Kennedy’s will do just fine.

Ender
 
That’s why I’m thinking civil rather than criminal, since civil only requires preponderance of evidence – don’t need much proof for motive and not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also they’d become martyrs for the skeptic movement, only leading to greater harms and deaths from AGW.

Hit them where it hurt the most – the pocket.

I think there probably are some egregious cases that could be tried successfully, that would hopefully serve as a deterrence for others, make them more circumspect and dissuade them from telling blatant lies that lead to harm and death. I’m convinced they know the truth, know how they are artfully twisting it in various ways, and purposely and deceitfully lie, without regard for human life or well-being.
I agree -civil action against those who propagate this myth thus wasting billions of dollars that could be used to address the real problems our world faces Perhaps criminal action against those who push mitigation efforts that will cost lives in Third World countries

A good start would be to sue all the sponsors of last weeks March for the cleanup of the incredible mess they left behind .
 
Interesting concept. Perhaps we should throw people in jail for inciting people to kill through mitigating AGW. Yes, I know that is the exact opposite of what you propose doing but it is no more (or less) irrational for me to insist that my opponents are evil, murderous swine than for you to do it. I wonder, though, what this would do to enrollment in science majors in college knowing that you could be arrested and punished if the results of your research were politicadlly incorrect?

If you want to put a face on zealotry and intolerance you don’t have to go to the Middle East to find one. Robert F. Kennedy’s will do just fine.

Ender
Since mitigating AGW also mitigates a host of other problems than also harm and kill, you might not be able to win that case.

The zealots are the ones who insist on their right to harm and kill thru environmental pollution, even if it means harming their own children and grandchildren. That is real zealotry.
 
What would you propose doing about people who kill and incite to kill? Do we just remain silent and let them kill?

I don’t have answers myself, only questions. I don’t like imprisoning people, esp since our prison system is so extremely horrible. Maybe community service of some type, like something with alt energy or planting trees for professional CC skeptics who incite people to kill thru AGW 🙂

Maybe since it is all about money for those professional CC skeptics, hit them were it hurts with huge lawsuits that amount to more than the get from the fossil fuel industries.

As the article said, “You still can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. You shouldn’t be able to yell ‘balderdash’ at 10,883 scientific journal articles a year, all saying the same thing: This is a problem, and we should take some preparations for when it becomes a bigger problem.”

I’m not sure what the punishment or fine is for people who “yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater when there is no fire” that ends up in a stampede that kills people. Maybe something along the lines of that level of punishment, fine, or slap on wrist.
First off, this analogy takes a very high brow and condescending view of human beings as if “they” are mostly like sheep and will inevitably respond to loud sounds by mass panic. I am not clear this is always so, especially when the threat is not immediate but some obtuse matter such as AGW.

Second, you need to be careful with analogies because someone might read carefully into the associations you are making and find that the analogy is less favorable to you than you suppose.

Note that it is the AGW advocates such as yourself - and not the deniers - who are the ones yelling, “Fire!” in this instance - well, more like the theatre is ‘heating’ up rather than actually burning. (Again, this makes the entire incident less panicky since I’ve never heard of people running from a theatre because it was “getting warm in here.”)

That would mean, basically, you are advocating that if things DON’T turn out as you suppose, ya’ll ought to be subject to “something along the lines of that level of punishment, fine, or slap on wrist” for causing unnecessary panic (or in this case, mild concern.)

To complete your analogy it is the deniers who are playing the role of the few less than sheep-like theatre goers who are advocating that more clear evidence of an actual fire be presented BEFORE they go into panic mode. It is the AGW advocates who are subscribing to the “Everyone run! There is a FIRE!” action and positively wanting everyone to panic.

Now the 10, 883 pieces of evidence may appear to be clear warning signs, but when looked at more closely the sheer numbers of documents seems more like having 10, 883 theatre patrons shouting “Fire!” than it is actual evidence of smoke or heat from a fire. The lack of a global temperature rise is akin to there not being any sensible smoke or fire in the theatre. A fact that the 10, 883 patrons running around the theatre yelling “Fire!” simply must address, especially in the face of those “deniers” who refuse to panic because no clear evidence has actually been presented, just warnings repeated over ten thousand times.

So, to be clear, are you claiming the AGW advocates should be punished in some way if their dire warnings turn out to be mistaken for inciting panic when there was no clear need to do so?

As far as I can tell it is the deniers who are playing the role of a few in the theatre who are not responding as panicked sheep (which the advocates want,) but as voices trying to calm the panic and asking for clear signs of fire before they unnecessarily respond.

It is incumbant on the advocates to produce that clear evidence before everyone panics. No? Especially since so much hangs on the outcome.

Which movie was showing, by the way? With the state of movie making these days, it might be better to take part in a live evacuation excercise than stay and watch the picture to the end.
 
First off, this analogy takes a very high brow and condescending view of human beings as if “they” are mostly like sheep and will inevitably respond to loud sounds by mass panic. I am not clear this is always so, especially when the threat is not immediate but some obtuse matter such as AGW.

Second, you need to be careful with analogies because someone might read carefully into the associations you are making and find that the analogy is less favorable to you than you suppose.

Note that it is the AGW advocates such as yourself - and not the deniers - who are the ones yelling, “Fire!” in this instance - well, more like the theatre is ‘heating’ up rather than actually burning. (Again, this makes the entire incident less panicky since I’ve never heard of people running from a theatre because it was “getting warm in here.”)

That would mean, basically, you are advocating that if things DON’T turn out as you suppose, ya’ll ought to be subject to “something along the lines of that level of punishment, fine, or slap on wrist” for causing unnecessary panic (or in this case, mild concern.)

To complete your analogy it is the deniers who are playing the role of the few less than sheep-like theatre goers who are advocating that more clear evidence of an actual fire be presented BEFORE they go into panic mode. It is the AGW advocates who are subscribing to the “Everyone run! There is a FIRE!” action and positively wanting everyone to panic.

Now the 10, 883 pieces of evidence may appear to be clear warning signs, but when looked at more closely the sheer numbers of documents seems more like having 10, 883 theatre patrons shouting “Fire!” than it is actual evidence of smoke or heat from a fire. The lack of a global temperature rise is akin to there not being any sensible smoke or fire in the theatre. A fact that the 10, 883 patrons running around the theatre yelling “Fire!” simply must address, especially in the face of those “deniers” who refuse to panic because no clear evidence has actually been presented, just warnings repeated over ten thousand times.

So, to be clear, are you claiming the AGW advocates should be punished in some way if their dire warnings turn out to be mistaken for inciting panic when there was no clear need to do so?

As far as I can tell it is the deniers who are playing the role of a few in the theatre who are not responding as panicked sheep (which the advocates want,) but as voices trying to calm the panic and asking for clear signs of fire before they unnecessarily respond.

It is incumbant on the advocates to produce that clear evidence before everyone panics. No? Especially since so much hangs on the outcome.

Which movie was showing, by the way? With the state of movie making these days, it might be better to take part in a live evacuation excercise than stay and watch the picture to the end.
👍
 
Since mitigating AGW also mitigates a host of other problems than also harm and kill, you might not be able to win that case.
First, you conflate mitigating pollution with mitigating global warming; those are two different issues. Second, I agree that I could not win a case against AGW mitigators, just as you could not win a case against AGW deniers. The science does not support either side…which is the real point to take from suggestions that either side should be prosecuted. The real difference in our positions is that yours appeared wistful while mine was satirical.
The zealots are the ones who insist on their right to harm and kill thru environmental pollution, even if it means harming their own children and grandchildren. That is real zealotry.
I’m pretty sure no one has insisted on a right to harm and kill. If you have evidence that someone has taken this position I’d like to see it. Are you unable to make a distinction between direct killing and doing something believed harmless which you believe is deadly? Am I a zealot for disbelieving the scientific arguments for AGW, or is RFK, Jr the zealot for believing I should be criminally punishment for my disbelief?

Ender
 
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