Yes, how the liturgy is celebrated DOES matter!!

[Stylites]

That is a very serious and important question. First it’s a matter of validity not illicitness. People talk a great deal on these forums about things being “illicit” when they really don’t know. And I don’t honestly know if “sanctity” is the right word? I would agree that “taste” is used correctly however. Let me use an individual at my parish as an example of what I think is a real problem and not just one of “taste.”

We have a deacon at our parish. He has trouble reading and his diction makes it terribly difficult for him to be understood. He clearly has a difficult time multitasking and easily becomes discombobulated (in the words of one parish sage.) None of those are subjective or new. He’s only been a deacon for a few years and it’s always been this way. His performance can be readily observed at any Mass he takes part in. Further (and this might be more subjective) he seems so interested in putting himself on display that he misses things that are his responsibility.

As the deacon the Missale ribbon placement is ultimately his responsibility. He flips the pages for the celebrant during Mass. Last Sunday he put on his fake pious face as he “checked” the Missale while setting up the altar. He put on a real show with the Missale once the altar was set and we were waiting for the collection to be further a long. A few minutes later the priest started digging-into the Missal. It stopped the Mass for 2 minutes. I know this priest well and he is careful about checking the ribbons prior to the Missale being taken from the sacristy for the Mass. To make a long story short the deacon didn’t know what he was looking at. He not only didn’t catch the problem, he likely caused it.

OK, now my question. Is it a forgone conclusion that we suffer this man’s impact on the Mass because he is indeed ordained? He has a materially negative impact on the Mass. Is that something we just have to live with? How do we justify the impact?

So the verdict is he “seems so interested in putting himself on display” and has “a fake pious face” and “put on a real show” and he “likely caused” a problem. You ought to take him out to lunch some day and get to know him as someone other than a drama student and a source of pique. Then you might learn something positive from him and that would certainly “justify the impact.”

 

[maryjk]

So the verdict is he “seems so interested in putting himself on display” and has “a fake pious face” and “put on a real show” and he “likely caused” a problem. You ought to take him out to lunch some day and get to know him as someone other than a drama student and a source of pique. Then you might learn something positive and that would certainly “justify the impact.”

He could be like our deacon. He is dyslexic. And when he gets flustered he tends to smile a lot.

He also smiles a lot because he believes God has blessed him abundantly.

I am sure that any visitor would wonder why we put up with him. Those of us that know him, know he is a true gift from our Lord. What a wonderfully giving man. I am not sure what the parish would do without him.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It seems you are very hard to please.

You seem to not like one end of the spectrum, but you clearly don’t like the other end, either.

 

[Laetus]

So the verdict is he “seems so interested in putting himself on display” and has “a fake pious face” and “put on a real show” and he “likely caused” a problem. You ought to take him out to lunch some day and get to know him as someone other than a drama student and a source of pique. Then you might learn something positive from him and that would certainly “justify the impact.”

I’ve eaten with him at table more than once. It wasn’t pleasant.

 

[Laetus]

He could be like our deacon. He is dyslexic. And when he gets flustered he tends to smile a lot.

He also smiles a lot because he believes God has blessed him abundantly.

I am sure that any visitor would wonder why we put up with him. Those of us that know him, know he is a true gift from our Lord. What a wonderfully giving man. I am not sure what the parish would do without him.

I didn’t mean to go on and on about the deacon. I just wanted to use him as an example. It’s clear he was never given (or developed) the gifts of reading or public speaking. That’s an objective accessible. Him becoming discombobulated during Mass is another observable fact. The sad part is that impinges on our Masses and that’s just the way it is. How terribly sad.

 

[Laetus]

He could be like our deacon. He is dyslexic. And when he gets flustered he tends to smile a lot.

He also smiles a lot because he believes God has blessed him abundantly.

I am sure that any visitor would wonder why we put up with him. Those of us that know him, know he is a true gift from our Lord. What a wonderfully giving man. I am not sure what the parish would do without him.

I’m curious. Do you think a deacon should be allowed to impinge upon a Mass if he has poor reading, speaking and concentration skills/abilities? Is that yet something else to “offer up” every Sunday?

 

[arkwright]

And I’m tired of being told that what nourishes someone else is the only thing capable of nourishing me.

What nourishes me is Jesus.

J - E - S - U - S.

Jesus is what nourishes me.

I hope you all have fun arguing about the Mass.

-Tim-

But haven’t you noticed from the various threads that most on this forum just love arguing about the Mass ?

I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees how his Eucharist is boxed in by so many petty , infantile rules and regulations , preventing his followers from seeing the wood for the trees .

 

[Joan_M]

But haven’t you noticed from the various threads that most on this forum just love arguing about the Mass ?

I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees how his Eucharist is boxed in by so many petty , infantile rules and regulations , preventing his followers from seeing the wood for the trees .

Excuse me? Boxed in? Where do you get this idea from?

**Jesus conferred authority on his apostles (and the bishops who succeeded them) when he said “whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven. whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.” That means that those rules and regulations that you see a petty and infantile are made with the authority of God.

**

 

[Joan_M]

I am tired of being told that as long as the Mass is valid, that we shouldn’t want or expect anything more. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am tired of being told that as long as the Mass is valid it nourishes people just as well as any other valid Mass. That is a gross oversimplification. I am tired of hearing my pastor does not have time to celebrate the Mass with even a modicum of reverence or to prepare a decent homily. I am tired of hearing how I should be grateful simply for having a Mass to attend on Sundays. These excuses have done damage to a great many peoples’ faith.These excuses have caused a great many people to leave the Church. These excuses need to stop.

Two Sundays ago we had a visiting priest at my parish His entire celebration of the Mass was exquisite. It was beautiful without a hint of the severity, artificial piety or trinketry I have experienced at some parishes. He chanted the Mass, his homily was beautifully crafted (it clearly took hours of prep) and he used the Roman Canon. Most of all he simply took his time and celebrated the Mass with great reverence and dignity – with LOVE. His efforts greatly facilitated my absorption of the grace stemming from the sacrifice. It was awesome. It took about 10-15 minutes longer than a typical Sunday Mass. Well, well worth it.

The very next Sunday was one of the worst Masses I have ever attended. Same church, same pew location, same Mass, but the way in which it was celebrated made all the difference in the world. I’m not going to go into details but it was ugly. The contrast from the week before was like a punch to the head (or more correctly my heart.) I am honestly tired of the excuses. I am tired of being told that the grace is “locked in.” Why does the Pontiff go to such extremes to celebrate such elaborate, costly and solemn Masses if the way and care in which the Mass is celebrated means nothing?

This is one area the Protestants have us beat by a mile. There is competition in their world to perform or die. Spend time preparing a good sermon (and in some cases a good liturgy) or see the fellowship eventually fold. (Please no lectures about the non valid nature of their liturgies, etc. That all goes without saying.) Not only is there little such competition in the Catholic Church (this is not necessarily true in larger cities) we are actually obliged to attend Mass. There really is no incentive to celebrate the Mass with greater care and love on a human level. People are required to attend and there is a “shortage” or priests and that’s the reality. Something needs to change.

Given the awesome miracle that is the Mass you’d think that it would never be celebrated without great care, reverence and dignity. I wonder why I so often experience something different?

I totally agree with you. I have come to realize that most priests and bishops have no idea how many of their brethern in Holy Orders are messing with the Mass. I can understand a priest making an error. We can all make mistakes. What I cannot take is priests deliberately making up or changing the prayers as they go along. What is it that makes them think they can disobey the Church, the Pope, and so disobey God? Do they not realize that they will answer for their arrogance, eventually? Do they not realize that they are also abusing their congregations, since the Church has made it clear that the laity is entitled to an authentic liturgy - which means a liturgy exactly as directed by the Church?

I do not go to Mass looking for mistakes or deliberate changes done by the priest. I go to Mass to participate in the Worship of the Church for God Almighty. I have a Missal and I follow it - because following the written word helps to deepen understanding of what is said. Unfortunately, it shows clearly when Father Ad-libby ad-libs. Yesterday I went to Mass in a chapel I do not frequent. The Mass was celebrated by a priest I can recognize but do not know. He had me hunting in the missal to try to see what Mass he was celebrating - even though knew, since he was wearing red vestments and had announced that it was St. Justin Martyr! Why? Because the opening prayer he “read” had a first half that was nothing like what was in the Missal! When he started the Eucharistic Prayer, I was checking to see which one he was saying, and could not find it at first (it was the 2nd one - the commonest one read in my diocese) - because he had totally changed the start of it. When a priest does things like this they cannot be missed, unless the hearer has no clue what the prayers of the Mass really are. It is not being a liturgy police. It is being a faithful Catholic who has zeal for the Liturgy and is being abused by priests.

Why cannot our priests practice the virtue of obedience - to the Church, the Pope and God? Why will they not “Say the Black, do the Red”? Pride. Arrogance. Disobedience. And we should be thankful for that???

 

[maryjk]

I’m curious. Do you think a deacon should be allowed to impinge upon a Mass if he has poor reading, speaking and concentration skills/abilities? Is that yet something else to “offer up” every Sunday?

What you see as being “allowed to impinge upon the Mass,” I see as someone trying as best they can, to do the best they can.

No priest or deacon is perfect. All will make mistakes from time to time. But with the prayers of the faithful and a good attitude from all, everyone will get through the mistakes.

 

[Cat]

I’m curious. Do you think a deacon should be allowed to impinge upon a Mass if he has poor reading, speaking and concentration skills/abilities? Is that yet something else to “offer up” every Sunday?

Yes, I think it’s something to offer up every Sunday. But I think that we need to stop seeing this as “offering up our suffering.” Just remember, he’s the one who suffers. He has to live with his inadequacies and disabilities every moment of every day of his life. We just have to face his inadequacies for an hour a week at Mass, and then we are free to leave and go back to enjoying our own physical prowess and lack of deficiencies for the rest of the week. Lucky us, right?

We see what’s on the outside, while God sees the inside.

And the least will be the greatest in heaven.

 

[agnes_therese]

I’m curious. Do you think a deacon should be allowed to impinge upon a Mass if he has poor reading, speaking and concentration skills/abilities? Is that yet something else to “offer up” every Sunday?

Your quarrel is not with the deacon himself – these don’t sound like things he can help. Your quarrel is with the deacon formation program in your diocese. Have you told them you don’t think they’re doing a good job in choosing candidates?

 

[Cat]

I’m on the fence about the OP.

Yes, I would love to see more “excellence” in the Mass. I think that a lot of our liturgy is rather lack-luster. Not “incorrect” or “abusive” or even “bad.” Just kind of ho-hum.

Much of the music is kind of bland and under-rehearsed, and only a few times a year do musicians knock themselves out and do something that is magnificent.

I won’t say a word about homilies, since I certainly couldn’t offer a homily, so why should I criticize someone else?! But I do agree that it is a treat to hear an excellent homily.

So I kind of sort of maybe agree with the OP.

But then, should we expect all of our Masses to be a “treat?” This could become a a “theater” mentality, which is currently what is seen in certain Protestant denominations.

But just because we strive for excellence and beauty does not mean that we are looking only to please our senses and create theater. Can we not crave beauty and magnificence in the Mass out of a desire to fully give God adequate praise that is worthy of His Majesty?

Again, what I want to see is “excellence” in all aspects of the Mass, but with tolerance and love for missteps and human failures.

Even the best musicians falter and make mistakes. Even well-trained altar servers get mixed up and turn the wrong way, or forget to bring something up to the sanctuary. Even a good orator can prepare a homily, but it doesn’t quite come out of his mouth they way he intended it to come out.

These things happen, and I would never advocate getting fussed out about it.

I think that a lot of this is in the hands of the priests, who can raise the bar for everyone who is serving at the Mass, including the congregation. I’m not sure how much influence the congregation/laypeople have on raising the bar for Mass. I fear that the more we fuss about it, the more likely we are to be perceived as fussbudgets. I’m not sure what a good approach would be, other than to be willing to pitch in and help at Mass.

Interesting thread, with lots to think about.

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees how his Eucharist is boxed in by so many petty , infantile rules and regulations , preventing his followers from seeing the wood for the trees .

Didn’t Christ have rules? Didn’t He also leave the Apostles in charge of executing these rules?

 

[superamazingman]

But haven’t you noticed from the various threads that most on this forum just love arguing about the Mass ?

I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees how his Eucharist is boxed in by so many petty , infantile rules and regulations , preventing his followers from seeing the wood for the trees .

You’re sounding very protestant with that attitude.

“All that matters is me and Jesus.”

 

[Stylites]

What you see as being “allowed to impinge upon the Mass,” I see as someone trying as best they can, to do the best they can.

No priest or deacon is perfect. All will make mistakes from time to time. But with the prayers of the faithful and a good attitude from all, everyone will get through the mistakes.

Get through the mistakes, and even benefit spiritually from them. It seems Voltaire’s statement rings true here: “The perfect is the enemy of the good.”

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Pray diligently for a release from your perfectionism, Laetus.

 

[Stylites]

But haven’t you noticed from the various threads that most on this forum just love arguing about the Mass ?

I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees how his Eucharist is boxed in by so many petty , infantile rules and regulations , preventing his followers from seeing the wood for the trees .

It’s Jesus and his sword of division. That God is present in our midst results in those who focus on how others appear to not be as outwardly perfect as they themselves try to be, out of their love for God, while others focus on the love God has for us in spite of our imperfections, and who try to perfect their virtue of love.

But God requires mercy and not sacrifice. He looks in the heart and not in the outward show. He enjoins us to perfection, but in the virtues and not in the outward form.

So let’s give even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is Jesus’ disciple rather than a cold shoulder.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s Jesus and his sword of division. That God is present in our midst results in those who focus on how others appear to not be as outwardly perfect as they themselves try to be, out of their love for God, while others focus on the love God has for us in spite of our imperfections, and who try to perfect their virtue of love.

But God requires mercy and not sacrifice. He looks in the heart and not in the outward show. He enjoins us to perfection, but in the virtues and not in the outward form.

So let’s give even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is Jesus’ disciple rather than a cold shoulder.

Where did you read this, if I may ask?

 

[curlycool89]

I’m curious. Do you think a deacon should be allowed to impinge upon a Mass if he has poor reading, speaking and concentration skills/abilities? Is that yet something else to “offer up” every Sunday?

If the Bishop has assigned him to this parish and given him faculties for these duties, then yes. It’s the bishops decision who gets permission to do stuff.

It’s not the job of the laity to decide who’s a “good” priest or “good” deacon, that’s the Bishop’s responsibility. If you have a problem, talk to the bishop. If he’s says there’s no problem, then you have to let it go (some people would probably say “write to a certain congregation of the Curia”, but so long as there’s no abuses happening they’re just going to punt it back to the bishop anyways since it’s a purely local matter).

Even well-trained altar servers get mixed up and turn the wrong way, or forget to bring something up to the sanctuary.

Guilty. I totally forgot to clear off the altar during the communion procession the other day, and had to quickly do it while Father was returning the ciborium to the tabernacle. I wonder how many calls for my head I’d get for that around here?