Yes, how the liturgy is celebrated DOES matter!!

[superamazingman]

Guilty. I totally forgot to clear off the altar during the communion procession the other day, and had to quickly do it while Father was returning the ciborium to the tabernacle. I wonder how many calls for my head I’d get for that around here?

Really, now, no one gets angry about mistakes. It’s those intentionally sloppy with the liturgy that are frustrating.

 

[mab23]

Why don’t you find a new parish?

There are lots of them in the USA.

yeah - Id jump around parishes and find one that suites your needs

 

[maltmom]

Not one person has address one of the saddest realities I know of in the Catholic Christian faith – people leave the Church because the celebration of the Mass is treated with such indifference and in some cases outfight abuse.

Most Catholics’ greatest exposure to the Church by far is though attending Mass. I wonder how many millions of souls have left because they Mass was treated like a parking validation station and not like the miracle it is?

It is truly pathetic if the reason someone would leave the Church and their faith behind b/c they perceived the Mass is being celebrated with indifference. So they leave the faith and either don’t go to any church or they become Protestant? That’s acting out as a child would by taking their toys and going home b/c the other child won’t play the way they want. If there is truly an abuse and not just a I want it done my way or the highway then the Bishop should get involved.

My “performance” was judged once. I had only been Catholic 2 weeks when I was asked to do the 1st reading. I did the reading and on my way back to my seat I heard whispering. I didn’t do the Responsorial Psalm. I was nervous and the previous week we had a cantor. I didn’t remember that the 1st reader also did it. The rest of the Mass I wondered what I had done wrong and was it that horribly wrong that people would whisper about me. I felt horrible. At the end of Mass we had the announcements. I had one and when Father repeated mine he got a big smile on his face and announced that I’d only been Catholic 2 weeks. I found it ironic that no one from the area that was whispering came over after Mass to welcome me as those in my area did. I still do the readings when asked. I consider it an honor to serve in this capacity.

I pray for those who feel the need to look for things to complain about during the Mass. I’d rather focus on God.

 

[curlycool89]

Really, now, no one gets angry about mistakes. It’s those intentionally sloppy with the liturgy that are frustrating.

I’ve seen head-calls for things even pettier then this.

Probably half the time there’s a thread on this forum about “liturgical abuse” it can usually be put down to a mistake or a slip, but the threads still get posted.

 

[Stylites]

Really, now, no one gets angry about mistakes. It’s those intentionally sloppy with the liturgy that are frustrating.

Of course, we don’t know the deacon who is being talked about behind his back, and he’s not here to defend himself either.

 

[Laetus]

It is truly pathetic if the reason someone would leave the Church and their faith behind b/c they perceived the Mass is being celebrated with indifference. So they leave the faith and either don’t go to any church or they become Protestant? That’s acting out as a child would by taking their toys and going home b/c the other child won’t play the way they want. If there is truly an abuse and not just a I want it done my way or the highway then the Bishop should get involved.

Think about what you just said. It equates to little more than “it doesn’t matter if the Mass is celebrated with indifference.” If Catholics actually believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was the unbloody representation of the sacrifice of God the Son to His Father for the sins of all, yesterday, today and tomorrow, then indifference means a lot.

For far, far too many, the Mass is simply a social event. A fellowship at best when in reality it’s something entirely different.

My “performance” was judged once. I had only been Catholic 2 weeks when I was asked to do the 1st reading. I did the reading and on my way back to my seat I heard whispering. I didn’t do the Responsorial Psalm. I was nervous and the previous week we had a cantor. I didn’t remember that the 1st reader also did it. The rest of the Mass I wondered what I had done wrong and was it that horribly wrong that people would whisper about me. I felt horrible. At the end of Mass we had the announcements. I had one and when Father repeated mine he got a big smile on his face and announced that I’d only been Catholic 2 weeks. I found it ironic that no one from the area that was whispering came over after Mass to welcome me as those in my area did. I still do the readings when asked. I consider it an honor to serve in this capacity.

Why take on the responsibility if you were not prepared? The Mass is NOT the place to learn how to lector! You’re upset because you feel you were treated poorly and in a sense you were when you were asked to do something you were not prepared to do. I would have been upset because you weren’t prepared. *The Mass demands thorough preparation. * Some people clearly don’t get that. Yes, it really is THAT important.

I pray for those who feel the need to look for things to complain about during the Mass. I’d rather focus on God.

I pray for those that implicitly approve of the Mass being celebrated with indifference.

 

[Laetus]

How did you come by this information? You seem to be very concerned with other people’s lives. Your other thread is concerned with the intentions for Mass being “taken” by one family, for a year.

Is the plank in your own eye bothering you at all?

Yes, it’s perfectionism, projected onto others.

Please stop judging me. I have asked you nicely several times.

 

[Laetus]

yeah - Id jump around parishes and find one that suites your needs

Asked and answered.

 

[Laetus]

Guilty. I totally forgot to clear off the altar during the communion procession the other day, and had to quickly do it while Father was returning the ciborium to the tabernacle. I wonder how many calls for my head I’d get for that around here?

Why even post this? I’m not talking about “mistakes.”

 

[maryjk]

Why even post this? I’m not talking about “mistakes.”

But you are. You are talking about someone making a mistake. You aren’t talking about someone intentionally messing up the Mass.

If you are, you haven’t given any evidence of that.

 

[agnes_therese]

Why take on the responsibility if you were not prepared? The Mass is NOT the place to learn how to lector! You’re upset because you feel you were treated poorly and in a sense you were when you were asked to do something you were not prepared to do. I would have been upset because you weren’t prepared. *The Mass demands thorough preparation. * Some people clearly don’t get that. Yes, it really is THAT important.

Are you a lector? No, you must not be. If you were, you would know that even lectors who are prepared and experienced (as maltmom was not) have made mistakes. The reason for that is that we are human beings, and human beings have been known to make the occasional error.
That is not indifference, it is not sloppiness, it is not failure to care – it is human. And Christ left His Church in the care of humans. Perhaps you should tell Him you think that was a mistake.

 

[grasscutter]

There is a real, concrete problem with dismissing the faithfuls’ concerns for generations. Many have left the Church. That is tragic, and the responsibility for their leaving does not rest only with those who have left.

The excuses are institutionalized at this point. The “J E S U S” hyperbole one person offered on this thread differs little from the Protestant: “Who needs religion? Who needs the Church? Who needs the sacraments? I have J E S U S !”

In reality that’s little more than saying “I don’t even want to recognize or admit that there are areas we could and need to improve upon. Rather than remain silent I’ll try the hyperbole route.”

I do get and somewhat agree with what you are saying. However, when I feel close to our Lord at the celebration of the Mass it doesn’t matter as much to me if everything wasn’t done to everyone’s specific liking.

There is a very big difference between liturgical abuse and and accepted practices in a diocese. Certainly, I would prefer a certain type of Mass, but that doesn’t happen to be available to me. The Mass at my parish has been directed and approved by my Bishop and I consider that to be good enough for me.

Luckily, I`m able to ignore relatively insignificant details and focus on both the Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. I will pray that you will also be able to experience that peace.

However, the people leaving the Church that you spoke of… do you know where they are choosing to go instead… let me know… that would be an interesting discussion.

 

[Marie5890]

I didn’t mean to go on and on about the deacon. I just wanted to use him as an example. It’s clear he was never given (or developed) the gifts of reading or public speaking. That’s an objective accessible. Him becoming discombobulated during Mass is another observable fact. The sad part is that impinges on our Masses and that’s just the way it is. How terribly sad.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to grow in charity with someone’s poverty, a poverty which entails another human being’s limitations in how they fulfill their vocation and ministry.

Just a thought because from what you have written about the deacon, I can’t see Christ getting nearly as put off as you seem to be, at least by your post.

 

[maltmom]

Think about what you just said. It equates to little more than “it doesn’t matter if the Mass is celebrated with indifference.” If Catholics actually believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was the unbloody representation of the sacrifice of God the Son to His Father for the sins of all, yesterday, today and tomorrow, then indifference means a lot.

For far, far too many, the Mass is simply a social event. A fellowship at best when in reality it’s something entirely different.

Why take on the responsibility if you were not prepared? The Mass is NOT the place to learn how to lector! You’re upset because you feel you were treated poorly and in a sense you were when you were asked to do something you were not prepared to do. I would have been upset because you weren’t prepared. *The Mass demands thorough preparation. * Some people clearly don’t get that. Yes, it really is THAT important.

I pray for those that implicitly approve of the Mass being celebrated with indifference.

I took on the responsibility of doing it because the 3 people who were asked before me said no. Those 3 were the ones I saw as I had just walked in. I don’t know how many were asked before them. There isn’t a formal lector at the Chapel I attend. We don’t have a Deacon either. It is my responsibility to do whatever is asked of me. I haven’t and wouldn’t say no if I’m needed. I was prepared in the sense that I had time before to review the reading so that I didn’t stumble over any of the words. I’m not upset now nor was I upset that I felt I was treated poorly. I didn’t think I was, I was upset because I thought I had done something horribly wrong. I made an honest mistake. I’m not perfect. Yes, it would have been nice if those who had been whispering about my mistake welcomed me to the Church. It have been even nicer if they would have said yes so that I wouldn’t have had to.

Yes, in a perfect world every second of the Mass would be textbook perfect. Since humans are involved mistakes can and will happen. If someone can actually get that worked up b/c someone makes an honest mistake well I feel sorry for them.

 

[superamazingman]

I’ve seen head-calls for things even pettier then this.

Probably half the time there’s a thread on this forum about “liturgical abuse” it can usually be put down to a mistake or a slip, but the threads still get posted.

I’ll admit, that frustrates me as well. If they were to ask in a questioning way, that’d be fine, but the way they often get asked, they always assume the priest is doing wrong, while on the other hand they know next to nothing about the liturgy other than what they’ve seen at the 8:00am Mass at St. Johns for the past 10 years.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Have you ever made an appointment, sat down and had a heart-to-heart, honest talk with the pastor, leaving the antagonistic, rude attitude you have displayed on this thread at the door?

Are you involved (or willing to become involved) of part of your parishes “liturgy committee”, teaching adult faith-formation classes, being a sacristan, being a reader or helping to train readers & sacrastans?

And I don’t want to hear, “well, I tried, but everything is too ‘clique-y’, the pastor doesn’t like me or my ideas, or the woman run everything…, etc.”, because I am really tired of hearing that same old excuse.

If you don’t like what is going on in your parish, GET INVOLVED!
And if you don’t want to do that, then, to be quite honest, IMHO, you have no right to complain.

I am tired of being told that as long as the Mass is valid, that we shouldn’t want or expect anything more. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am tired of being told that as long as the Mass is valid it nourishes people just as well as any other valid Mass. That is a gross oversimplification. I am tired of hearing my pastor does not have time to celebrate the Mass with even a modicum of reverence or to prepare a decent homily. I am tired of hearing how I should be grateful simply for having a Mass to attend on Sundays. These excuses have done damage to a great many peoples’ faith.These excuses have caused a great many people to leave the Church. These excuses need to stop.

Two Sundays ago we had a visiting priest at my parish His entire celebration of the Mass was exquisite. It was beautiful without a hint of the severity, artificial piety or trinketry I have experienced at some parishes. He chanted the Mass, his homily was beautifully crafted (it clearly took hours of prep) and he used the Roman Canon. Most of all he simply took his time and celebrated the Mass with great reverence and dignity – with LOVE. His efforts greatly facilitated my absorption of the grace stemming from the sacrifice. It was awesome. It took about 10-15 minutes longer than a typical Sunday Mass. Well, well worth it.

The very next Sunday was one of the worst Masses I have ever attended. Same church, same pew location, same Mass, but the way in which it was celebrated made all the difference in the world. I’m not going to go into details but it was ugly. The contrast from the week before was like a punch to the head (or more correctly my heart.) I am honestly tired of the excuses. I am tired of being told that the grace is “locked in.” Why does the Pontiff go to such extremes to celebrate such elaborate, costly and solemn Masses if the way and care in which the Mass is celebrated means nothing?

This is one area the Protestants have us beat by a mile. There is competition in their world to perform or die. Spend time preparing a good sermon (and in some cases a good liturgy) or see the fellowship eventually fold. (Please no lectures about the non valid nature of their liturgies, etc. That all goes without saying.) Not only is there little such competition in the Catholic Church (this is not necessarily true in larger cities) we are actually obliged to attend Mass. There really is no incentive to celebrate the Mass with greater care and love on a human level. People are required to attend and there is a “shortage” or priests and that’s the reality. Something needs to change.

Given the awesome miracle that is the Mass you’d think that it would never be celebrated without great care, reverence and dignity. I wonder why I so often experience something different?

 

[TimothyH]

I’m curious. Do you think a deacon should be allowed to impinge upon a Mass if he has poor reading, speaking and concentration skills/abilities? Is that yet something else to “offer up” every Sunday?

If he is a deacon, it is very likely that he was called by God to be so, and it is best not to stand in the way of what God wants.

No matter what deficiencies we see in the man, his pastor saw fit to send a letter of recommendation to the Bishop on his behalf, he went through and passed a very thourough psychiatric examination, spent several years in formation, and if he is married, his wife went through a rigourous process as well. At the end of the day, the bishop saw something in the man and decided that he would be a deacon.

The truth is that what you see a deacon doing at Mass is an extremely small portion of what a deacon really does. Let’s face it, an altar server could do what a deacon does. Deacons are ordained into service, and they are engaged in ministry outside the parish, even ouside the Catholic Church - prison ministry, working with the poor, hospital ministry, hospice, Habitat for Humanity, Alcoholics Anonymous, etc. I know a deacon who helps people pick out caskets and burial plots for family members who just died. He walks with them into the morgue or funeral home to identify the body.

What you see a deacon doing at the altar is about 5% of what a deacon does. Liturgy is a small part of who a deacon is. If you get a chance, strike up a conversation with a deacon and ask him what his ministry is. You might be surpised.

At the end of the day, the man was called by God, and that call was confirmed by the bishop, and there is little we can do about that.

-Tim-

 

[curlycool89]

I’ll admit, that frustrates me as well. If they were to ask in a questioning way, that’d be fine, but the way they often get asked, they always assume the priest is doing wrong, while on the other hand they know next to nothing about the liturgy other than what they’ve seen at the 8:00am Mass at St. Johns for the past 10 years.

Ah yes, the “the priest did something different that I’ve never seen before so it must have been illiic please confirm” threads as we’ll call them. Or the “I saw this priest for the first time and he did something different so it must have been illicit” threads.

 

[Laetus]

If he is a deacon, it is very likely that he was called by God to be so, and it is best not to stand in the way of what God wants.

I’ll say this. I was STUNNED when he was rejected for the formation. He had been telling people for years that either he was already a deacon or that he was going to become a deacon. He certainly tried to simulate one as a server. *Interesting he never lectored as a layperson… * It truly sounded like the Holy Spirit was in charge – until the maneuvering began of course.

Who said “his pastor saw fit to send a letter of recommendation to the Bishop on his behalf?” Not me. We didn’t have a pastor at that time. This whole process did nothing but show me what happens when the Holy Spirit is ignored in favor of parish politics.

No matter what deficiencies we see in the man, his pastor saw fit to send a letter of recommendation to the Bishop on his behalf, he went through and passed a very thourough psychiatric examination, spent several years in formation, and if he is married, his wife went through a rigourous process as well. At the end of the day, the bishop saw something in the man and decided that he would be a deacon.

The truth is that what you see a deacon doing at Mass is an extremely small portion of what a deacon really does. Let’s face it, an altar server could do what a deacon does. Deacons are ordained into service, and they are engaged in ministry outside the parish, even ouside the Catholic Church - prison ministry, working with the poor, hospital ministry, hospice, Habitat for Humanity, Alcoholics Anonymous, etc. I know a deacon who helps people pick out caskets and burial plots for family members who just died. He walks with them into the morgue or funeral home to identify the body.

What you see a deacon doing at the altar is about 5% of what a deacon does. Liturgy is a small part of who a deacon is. If you get a chance, strike up a conversation with a deacon and ask him what his ministry is. You might be surpised.

At the end of the day, the man was called by God, and that call was confirmed by the bishop, and there is little we can do about that.
-Tim-

For what it’s worth he is not allowed in the local county jail or the state prison because he broke their rules as a layman and was permanently banned. I truly wish he would not take part in the Masses I attend. He takes a real toll.

 

[TimothyH]

For what it’s worth he is not allowed in the local county jail or the state prison because he broke their rules as a layman and was permanently banned. I truly wish he would not take part in the Masses I attend. He takes a real toll.

Did I skim the thread and not read back far enough to get the context?

I went back and read and misunderstood your post. I didn’t read back far enough to get the context.

Please disregard all previous posts I made on the subject and accept my apologies for getting involved at all. I’m sorry that I responded.

-Tim-