Yes Mary saves!

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Odell

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One of the greatest semantic misunderstandings is the way Catholics and protestants use the terms salvation, atonement and redemption. Catholics use these words in a larger sense than protestants.
I refuse to use the narrow protestant definition and will spend alittle extra time on semantics. waht we realy mean when we say Mary saves.

What would you think if you encoutered a catholic book that says “one may atone for ones iniquity by faithfulness and love”? I’m sure an avid anti catholic would jump on this and say only christ can atone for our sins!
But what people don’t realize this statement is the language of the bible and if you read it in the bible, I’m sure you would believe it you would except its terminology.

So why the double standard when reading Catholic material?
Two kinds of atonement.
Only Christ can make atonement for us in the sense of eternal consequences.

But this is not the only sense

Prov 16:6: “by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the lord a man avoids evil.” Prov is talking about atonement in a different sense temporal rather than eternal

If the bible talks in a different sense whay can’t Catholics? Is it because Protestants have such a narrow understanding of salvation the bible?
Temporal and eternal salvation

Ex.14:13- and moses said to the people fear not stand firm, and see the salvation of the lord, which he will work for you today; for the Egyptions whom you see today,you shall never see again, the lord will fight for you and you have only to be still.

Luke.1:68-71, Blessed be the lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemd his people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from old, that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us.

Temporal and eternal Saviors

Obad20-21 the exiles Halah who are of the people of Israel shall posses Phoenicia as far as Zarephath; and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in shepharad shall possess the cities of Negeb, saviors shall go up to mount zion to rule mount esau and the kingdom shall be the lords

Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the gentiles I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself ant to your teaching hold to that for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents.

So yes Mary saves in a different sense I’ve expalined it for you don’t expect every Catholic document to do it for you!
 
Odell said:
One of the greatest semantic misunderstandings is the way Catholics and protestants use the terms salvation, atonement and redemption. Catholics use these words in a larger sense than protestants.
I refuse to use the narrow protestant definition and will spend alittle extra time on semantics. waht we realy mean when we say Mary saves.

What would you think if you encoutered a catholic book that says “one may atone for ones iniquity by faithfulness and love”? I’m sure an avid anti catholic would jump on this and say only christ can atone for our sins!
But what people don’t realize this statement is the language of the bible and if you read it in the bible, I’m sure you would believe it you would except its terminology.

So why the double standard when reading Catholic material?
Two kinds of atonement.
Only Christ can make atonement for us in the sense of eternal consequences.

But this is not the only sense

Prov 16:6: “by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the lord a man avoids evil.” Prov is talking about atonement in a different sense temporal rather than eternal

If the bible talks in a different sense whay can’t Catholics? Is it because Protestants have such a narrow understanding of salvation the bible?
Temporal and eternal salvation

Ex.14:13- and moses said to the people fear not stand firm, and see the salvation of the lord, which he will work for you today; for the Egyptions whom you see today,you shall never see again, the lord will fight for you and you have only to be still.

Luke.1:68-71, Blessed be the lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemd his people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from old, that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us.

Temporal and eternal Saviors

Obad20-21 the exiles Halah who are of the people of Israel shall posses Phoenicia as far as Zarephath; and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in shepharad shall possess the cities of Negeb, saviors shall go up to mount zion to rule mount esau and the kingdom shall be the lords

Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the gentiles I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself ant to your teaching hold to that for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents.

So yes Mary saves in a different sense I’ve expalined it for you don’t expect every Catholic document to do it for you!
Click to expand...
Salvation is ONLY through Christ. Nobody else is our salvation.
Mary and other saints, and even living people can lead us towards Christ but that is not saving us. Only Christ saves us.
 
thistle said:
Salvation is ONLY through Christ. Nobody else is our salvation.
Mary and other saints, and even living people can lead us towards Christ but that is not saving us. Only Christ saves us.
Click to expand...
Did you read the whole post? It addresses everything you’ve said (with scriptural examples too).

Great post, Odell. I don’t have a problem saying prayers like, Holy Mother, save us through your Immaculate Heart’s flame of love, because I know that what I mean when I pray save us is different from what a Protestant would mean.
 
thistle said:
Salvation is ONLY through Christ. Nobody else is our salvation.
Mary and other saints, and even living people can lead us towards Christ but that is not saving us. Only Christ saves us.
Click to expand...
mary is the co-redemptrix. if she had said no, Christ would not have been born, then where would we be, NOWHERE, thats right nowhere (if you like boondock saints you’ll get the refrence, but i digress). Mary is therefore the mediator of all graces, and the co-redemptrix, for a detaileed explination wikipedia says THIS
 
I have heard protestants say that they have saved many souls during a prayer meeting when people have accepted Christ.

There doesn’t seem to be a difference than if we say Mary saved us, as she does, but only through bringing us to Christ. Of course we are all instruments in bringing souls to Christ. I believe that is what the Catholic meaning is when we say that Mary saves us. It is not she personally that saves a person, but her leading souls to her Son.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
maybe i did not make myself clear.

all these examples humans serve as TEMPERAL saviors. Not eternal saviors as Christ is. Humans may bring temperal salvation to others by direct action pulling someone out of a flood or by indirect action such as praying. Or they may bring Christ eternal salvation to others by direct action such as preaching to the gospel or administring the sacraments. Or indirect action by praying for conversion.But in no way do humans earn eternal salvation for others and thus serve as eternal saviors the way Christ does
 
thistle said:
Christ is our only salvation. Nobody else.
Click to expand...
Would you have a problem with the first document of vatican II? That says “it is the liturgy through which, especially in the devine sacrafice of the Eucharist, the work, the work of our redemtion IS accomplished”.
Or when Paul says that he makes up what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings? If this was said by anyone but Paul it would be horrifying tp Protestants especially if a Catholic had said it! They would be showing lack of understanding the bibles manner of speaking of salvation in respect to temperal and eternal salvation.

You don’t have a problem with what I have said do you?
 
thistle said:
Christ is our only salvation. Nobody else.
Click to expand...
I believe the OP’s point is that, of course, Christ is ultimately solely responsibile for our eternal salvation, but He allows us to participate in playing a role in the salvation of others by cooperating with His Grace.
The Bible makes this point clearly with many many examples. So, when people cringe at hearing Catholics suggest that Mary played any part in our salvation they aren’t doing justice to Biblical language.
 
Odell said:
I refuse to use the narrow protestant definition and will spend alittle extra time on semantics. waht we realy mean when we say Mary saves.
Click to expand...
There may be misunderstandings of the terms by Protestants, but you have your own error, bother. The Church does not teach that Mary saves! Jesus Christ is the Redeemer who saves us.
 
Ignatius said:
There may be misunderstandings of the terms by Protestants, but you have your own error, bother. The Church does not teach that Mary saves! Jesus Christ is the Redeemer who saves us.
Click to expand...
Paul says he saves is he greater than Mary? 1Tim4:16 says I can save myself and others you don’t object to that do you?
Vatican II says our redemption is acomplished in the mass! Are they all in error as well?
 
Apparently some catholics have a narrow definition as well when it comes to salvation. Perhaps you need to read post one again I talk about temporal and eternal salvation. And maybe you should read salvation controversy my Jimmy Aken as well. Everything I wrote is strait out of his writings. Maybe he is in error also!
 
I have no problem accepting that God offers each of us a gift, to be assist in both our own salvation and that of others. So why don’t we avoid inflammatory language about Mary saving, and simply acknowledge the truth as taught by the Church, which is that Mary is a Christian like us (albeit the only perfect Christian).
 
VociMike said:
I have no problem accepting that God offers each of us a gift, to be assist in both our own salvation and that of others. So why don’t we avoid inflammatory language about Mary saving, and simply acknowledge the truth as taught by the Church, which is that Mary is a Christian like us (albeit the only perfect Christian).
Click to expand...
I think there is a good reason for saying Mary saves in the Catholic sense, and the reason of course is not to inflame protestant antagonism. Sinners, especially bad bad sinners, need to know Mary is there to help them. Many people like me who have sinned grievously against the Lord have a fear and unworthiness buried deep within us, and our faith oftentimes is not strong enough to go directly to the Lord and ask for what we need. It is God who in His mercy wants to point us to Mary, who is our Mother and offers no judgment of us and only helps us to gain the grace we need. To spread Marian devotion is to offer sinners a great chance at redemption. If you do not have enough faith to go to Christ, at least look at His Mother and ask her to help you. She will bring you to Christ. This is a message very necessary for sinners, especially serious sinners. So we really shouldn’t worry about inflaming anyone’s ears, because our intention is for the salvation of souls; it is not to make protestants feel uncomfortable with us.
 
Doesn’t that apply to all the angels and other saints in heaven as well?
 
VociMike said:
I have no problem accepting that God offers each of us a gift, to be assist in both our own salvation and that of others. So why don’t we avoid inflammatory language about Mary saving, and simply acknowledge the truth as taught by the Church, which is that Mary is a Christian like us (albeit the only perfect Christian).
Click to expand...
I can understand the problem honestly. But I only think it is inflamatory to those who take it out of context. I mean its the language of the bible to me this is a great starting point, pointing out our differences. Kind of like the word prayer that the meaning has changed over time I’m not going to sub come to the protestant meaning of prayer and say we don’t pray to Mary. I’m going to take the time to tell them what prayer really means and that Catholics understand prayer different
 
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