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_Abyssinia
Guest
Democrats Call Bill to Ban Abortions on Babies After 20 Weeks a “War on Women”
lifenews.com/2016/03/15/democrats-call-bill-to-ban-abortions-on-babies-after-20-weeks-a-war-on-women/
lifenews.com/2016/03/15/democrats-call-bill-to-ban-abortions-on-babies-after-20-weeks-a-war-on-women/
lozierinstitute.org/the-reality-of-late-term-abortion-procedures/The actual number of surgical abortions performed after 20 weeks in the United States cannot be known due to a lack of national reporting.[6] CDC projections, based largely on voluntary state reporting and abortion provider survey data from the Guttmacher Institute, a former affiliate of Planned Parenthood, estimate that roughly 1%, or over 15,000, abortions are performed after 20 weeks annually in the U.S.[7]
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
No, they cannot.
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bitterhope
Guest
How do you know this? At what age do you think humans can feel pain?No, they cannot.
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JimG
Guest
From the article:
"A child definitely feels pain at 20 weeks, testified Dr. Malloy on Tuesday, and it is certainly “viable.” Because of technological advancements “we have pushed back the gestational age” of when an unborn child “can be resuscitated and resuscitated successfully,” she said.
These children “are moving, reacting, and developing right before our eyes in the neonatal intensive care unit,” she said."
"A child definitely feels pain at 20 weeks, testified Dr. Malloy on Tuesday, and it is certainly “viable.” Because of technological advancements “we have pushed back the gestational age” of when an unborn child “can be resuscitated and resuscitated successfully,” she said.
These children “are moving, reacting, and developing right before our eyes in the neonatal intensive care unit,” she said."
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jediliz
Guest
Yes they can. The nervous system has developed. And babies born prematurely are definitely going to feel pain…and those babies are born as early as 23 weeks.No, they cannot.
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grotto
Guest
Yes they can. The nervous system has developed. And babies born prematurely are definitely going to feel pain…and those babies are born as early as 23 weeks.
Absolutely and totally true - two beautiful grandsons to prove it!
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zz912
Guest
Please give your credentials so that we might weigh your medical testimony against the testimony being discussed here.No, they cannot.
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mary_bobo
Guest
You beat me to the question. I have seen too many pre-term babies in my time to think they do not feel pain, even the very earliest ones. In my day in medical school most of the babies that were very premature did not survive. Now they do.Please give your credentials so that we might weigh your medical testimony against the testimony being discussed here.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
"The statement “substantial medical evidence recognizes that an unborn child is capable of experiencing pain by not later than 20 weeks after fertilization” is not accurate. The medical profession produced a rigorous scientific review of the available evidence on fetal pain in Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 2005. Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. The review concluded that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.How do you know this? At what age do you think humans can feel pain?
In 2010, The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (RCOG) rigorously reviewed the scientific literature and “in reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation”.
acog.org/~/media/Departments/State%20Legislative%20Activities/20130410CookLtr.pdf?dmc=1&ts=20130823T2103524859
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_Abyssinia
Guest
Frankly, 20 weeks may be conservative as to when unborn babies can feel pain.
Warning there is some graphic content at this source. Source links for the indented quotes is provided: abortionfacts.com/facts/13
Warning there is some graphic content at this source. Source links for the indented quotes is provided: abortionfacts.com/facts/13
Surgeon Robert P. N. Shearin states that: [1]
As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain…. First, the unborn child’s mouth, at eight weeks, then her hands at ten weeks, then her face, arms, and legs at eleven weeks become sensitive to touch. By thirteen-and-a-half weeks, she responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be termed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.
Pioneer fetologist Albert Iiley, of the University of Auckland, says that by the fifty-sixth day after conception, the baby’s spinal reflexes are sufficiently developed to feel pain. He adds: [3]
When doctors first began invading the sanctuary of the womb, they did not know that the unborn baby would react to pain in the same fashion as a child would. But they soon learned he did.
Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain.
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Path_Finder
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bitterhope
Guest
There was a time not very long ago when doctors would tell mothers that their newborn sins felt no pain during curcumcision and thst newborns didn’t require pain relief after medical procedures like older kids and adults do. We know now of course that this is not true.
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_Abyssinia
Guest
I truncated your post. Check this excerpt:
Those who deny unborn pain by 20 weeks after fertilization frequently cite two medical journal articles and a statement by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists as their basis for asserting there is a mainstream professional consensus that unborn children cannot perceive pain until significantly later in pregnancy. Far from being analyses by unbiased scientists, however, all of these sources were produced by strong abortion advocates – indeed, by abortion practictioners.
The most frequently cited source comes from “Fetal Pain: A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence,” published in the August 2005 edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA). The JAMA article was a commentary on a selection of then-existing medical literature.
The JAMA authors concede that pain receptors are present throughout the unborn child’s entire body by no later than 16 weeks after fertilization and nerves link these receptors to the brain’s thalamus and subcortical plate by no later than 20 weeks post fertilization. They also concede that the application of painful stimuli is associated with significant increases in stress hormones known as the stress response. Notwithstanding these facts, the authors deny unborn pain at that stage on the assumption that a functioning cerebral cortex is needed. However, see point [number one](file:///C:/Users/JPopik/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.Outlook/0BD4ODUU/Unborn%20Pain%20Deniers62613.doc#responseone) above for the substantial medical evidence that the thalamus alone is sufficient.
Moreover, rather than the article being an independent neutral representation of mainstream medical analysis, its lead author (who went on to pursue medical studies after publication) was previously employed as a lawyer by NARAL, the pro-abortion political advocacy organization. The Philadelphia Inquirer was the first to document several authors’ conflicts of interest. More can be found here.
Another frequently cited source comes from a 2010 piece produced by a “working group” of the (British) Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists titled “Fetal Awareness: Review of Research and Recommendations for Practice”. These authors, like those of the JAMA article, argued that in order to experience pain a functioning cerebral cortex is needed, which does not occur until well after 20 weeks. Further, they stated that during gestation, the unborn child is asleep, or in a coma-like state, and therefore cannot experience pain. However, see point [number one](file:///C:/Users/JPopik/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.Outlook/0BD4ODUU/Unborn%20Pain%20Deniers62613.doc#responseone) and [number two](file:///C:/Users/JPopik/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.Outlook/0BD4ODUU/Unborn%20Pain%20Deniers62613.doc#response2) above.
Again, rather than rather than being an independent neutral presentation of mainstream medical literature, the RCOG article is an effort by acknowledged abortion promoters. According to the RCOG in its 2010 publication, “The Care of Women Requesting Induced Abortion,
“The RCOG views induced abortion as a healthcare need as well as an important public health intervention, and reiterates the recommendation of the RCOG Working Party on Unplanned Pregnancy (1991) that ‘health authorities should accept responsibility for the abortions needed by women resident in their districts’…”
Another often cited source is a 2005 statement from the American College of Obstetricians and Gyncologists (ACOG). ACOG flatly asserted that there is “no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain.”
ACOG has a long history of abortion advocacy and many of its members are abortion practitioners.
In its 2009 Committee Opinion of Abortion Access and Training, the committee wrote,
“The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists supports education in family planning and abortion for both medical students and residents and abortion training among residents. In addition, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists supports availability of reproductive health services for all women, including strategies to reduce unintended pregnancy and to improve access to safe abortion services.”
doctorsonfetalpain.com/answering-the-pain-deniers/Moreover, ACOG opposes nearly all limits on abortion. During the “Partial Birth Abortion” debates that culminated in a 2007 Supreme Court decision in Gonzales v. Carhart 550 U.S. 124, ACOG parted ways with the respected American Medical Association which had testified during Congressional hearings that “Partial-Birth Abortion” bore no relevance to any measure needed to advance the health of any woman. ACOG’s support of the extreme and unnecessary “Partial Birth Abortion” procedure can be found here.
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Sarcelle
Guest
What I have heard from doctors is that very young babies can feel pain but they do not remember it.There was a time not very long ago when doctors would tell mothers that their newborn sins felt no pain during curcumcision and thst newborns didn’t require pain relief after medical procedures like older kids and adults do. We know now of course that this is not true.
When I was about to undergo surgery, I was informed by my doctor that the anesthesia to be used will allow me have no memory of the pain but he did not go on to say that it will block the pain.
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BChartowski
Guest
I’m always stymied at why the feeling of pain is used as an indicator as to whether or not it’s okay to kill someone. I hear it often, “oh, the fetus doesn’t feel pain, so…” This can’t possibly be taken seriously. Sure, any inroads to stop people from killing their children is welcome, but the fact that some use pain as the indicator is just beyond belief. Anyone who is okay with killing children has either an incredible and stout ignorance in the matter, or they have serious problems. If they refuse to appreciate life, then they do, indeed, have serious problems. It’s completely beyond the pale. Giving murder a different name, such as abortion, and stating that the victim didn’t even feel it suddenly makes it okay. Taken to its logical conclusion the argument that the victim didn’t feel any pain leads to the permission of truly grisly and disgusting acts against others. I simply can’t believe that the world is in such a detestable state that these arguments are even being made.
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Monkey1976
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There are several methods for killing someone painlessly - does that make it okay to kill them because they’re an inconvenience?
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Libtam
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That means we can abort them before that time, it won’t be up for any debate.
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BChartowski
Guest
Precisely. The word lamentable isn’t sufficient.There are several methods for killing someone painlessly - does that make it okay to kill them because they’re an inconvenience?
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
No. Life begins at conception.That means we can abort them before that time, it won’t be up for any debate.
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