Yet another hand holding question

[otjm]

otjm…actually I would agree with the main point of your argument…there are much bigger fish to fry…that is why I do hold hands in my hand-holding parish. However, the reason I sometimes get in this discussion is that “where does this stuff end”? Yes, the instructions in the rubrics are pretty broad but 50 years ago that sufficed…no one would think of introducing these things into the Mass. I want to stay in the “Catholic” church…not a hand-holding, arms raised, amen shouting, guitar-playing, liturgical skit/dance performing, female priest and/or laity-presided “symbolism” Mass where someone might next decide an altar call would be nice. Now I realize this is, of course, an exaggerated description but considering that I heard in RCIA the other day a discussion about 70+ percentage of Catholics not believing in the real presence I think it’s pretty important we hold fast from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Keep in mind the old witticism: there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Jimmy Akin did an analysis of the supposed statistics of 70% not believing in the True Presence, and showed how it was grossly over-exaggerated and mis-stated. Many Catholics are not able to articulate the explanation the Church uses to explain it, as they were not catechized properly; but that does not necessarily equate with no belief. What it does equate with is poorly understood and poorly formed belief.

A person may not be able to distinguish between, for example, the theological explanation that the Episcopal Church might make, or the Lutheran Church might make and the one the Catholic Church makes; that does not mean they have no belief in True Presence. If they were not taught the difference between Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation, it means that their training was inadequate; and a goodly number who were taught it couldn’t explain it adequately at any given moment; they are not theologians; they are just Catholics. Poorly catechized, but still Catholic.

I agree with you about one end of the spectrum or the other. A whole lot has gone on, especially in catechesis, that is not correct; but that didn’t start with Vatican 2; it just accellerated.

We have a tremendous amount of sloppy thinking (and too often, no thinking at all) in the world today, and the Catholic population is by no means excluded from that. I teach RCIA and I certainly do my best to bring that to an end.

As to your question “where does this stuff end”, I would submit that we do not live in a perfect world, never have, and won’t until the Second Coming. We too often look with rose colored glasses at “back then” and “back then” had its own set of problems, which too often are either not articulated, or are glossed over. Slowly but surely some of the past 30+ years of goofiness will be overcome. But just as sure as God made little green apples, we will have other problems. What we need to do is be cognizant of is what are major problems, and what are just irritants. Hand holding and women’s ordination do not belong in the same conversation.

 

[BSHoop96]

Keep in mind the old witticism: there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Jimmy Akin did an analysis of the supposed statistics of 70% not believing in the True Presence, and showed how it was grossly over-exaggerated and mis-stated. Many Catholics are not able to articulate the explanation the Church uses to explain it, as they were not catechized properly; but that does not necessarily equate with no belief. What it does equate with is poorly understood and poorly formed belief.

A person may not be able to distinguish between, for example, the theological explanation that the Episcopal Church might make, or the Lutheran Church might make and the one the Catholic Church makes; that does not mean they have no belief in True Presence. If they were not taught the difference between Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation, it means that their training was inadequate; and a goodly number who were taught it couldn’t explain it adequately at any given moment; they are not theologians; they are just Catholics. Poorly catechized, but still Catholic.

I agree with you about one end of the spectrum or the other. A whole lot has gone on, especially in catechesis, that is not correct; but that didn’t start with Vatican 2; it just accellerated.

We have a tremendous amount of sloppy thinking (and too often, no thinking at all) in the world today, and the Catholic population is by no means excluded from that. I teach RCIA and I certainly do my best to bring that to an end.

As to your question “where does this stuff end”, I would submit that we do not live in a perfect world, never have, and won’t until the Second Coming. We too often look with rose colored glasses at “back then” and “back then” had its own set of problems, which too often are either not articulated, or are glossed over. Slowly but surely some of the past 30+ years of goofiness will be overcome. But just as sure as God made little green apples, we will have other problems. What we need to do is be cognizant of is what are major problems, and what are just irritants. Hand holding and women’s ordination do not belong in the same conversation.

I, of course, understand why you made this statement. And basically, you made a good and thoughtful response. I am not willing, however, to say all the small stuff does not matter. It does matter. It can become the proverbial “slippery slope”. I am not making a pre-Vatican II statement as I was not a Catholic then. I am not trying to be argumentative, particularly with you as I tend to agree with your basic assessment, but rather, I am making a statement against sliding into what, for lack of a better term, is often referred to as the protestantization of the Catholic church.

 

[elgar]

BSHoop96:
I, of course, understand why you made this statement. And basically, you made a good and thoughtful response. I am not willing, however, to say all the small stuff does not matter. It does matter. It can become the proverbial “slippery slope”. I am not making a pre-Vatican II statement as I was not a Catholic then. I am not trying to be argumentative, particularly with you as I tend to agree with your basic assessment, but rather, I am making a statement against sliding into what, for lack of a better term, is often referred to as the protestantization of the Catholic church.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush when you refer to the protestantization of the Catholic church. Raising hands and holding hands may be commonplace in Pentecostal and Mega-Baptist styled churches, but some protestants are much more formal and restrained than Catholics when it comes to these gestures. In the Anglican church you would be hard pressed to see anybody holding hands during the “Lords Prayer,” which BTW is done while kneeling.

 

[BSHoop96]

**You are painting with a pretty broad brush when you refer to the protestantization of the Catholic church. ** Raising hands and holding hands may be commonplace in Pentecostal and Mega-Baptist styled churches, but some protestants are much more formal and restrained than Catholics when it comes to these gestures. In the Anglican church you would be hard pressed to see anybody holding hands during the “Lords Prayer,” which BTW is done while kneeling.

Which is why I said: “for lack of a better term, is often referred to as the protestantization of the Catholic church.”

I would say Catholics are much more familiar with this coming from non-Catholics than they are from Catholics. Unless perhaps one attends a Charismatic church? Which is why on various sites I have seen it referred to as such.

As far as the Anglicans…that’s another whole discussion entirely. They have much bigger problems than whether they are holding hands or not, which I guess could throw the whole argument another way.

 

[NeedImprovement]

You know that is a red herring and has no bearing on this situation.

Actually Lux, it was intended as an improvisational tool to take it to an extreme endeavoring to make the same point BSHoop96 does in post # 79 - “where does this stuff end?” . Everybody has their limit. I think that’s what’s being expressed in the thread. It was also meant as a little comic relief.

Additionally,it was in response to a post which could’ve implied that hand holding was also in the rubrics - which it is not. The sign of peace is - if the presider instructs the faithful to.

For the record, if someone approaches me, I’m reciprocal about it - distracted or not. I do find it a little easier to pray in environments where there is less experimentation during the liturgy though.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Actually Lux, it was intended as an improvisational tool to take it to an extreme endeavoring to make the same point BSHoop96 does in post # 79 - "where does this stuff end?" . Everybody has their limit. I think that’s what’s being expressed in the thread. It was also meant as a little comic relief.

Additionally,it was in response to a post which could’ve implied that hand holding was also in the rubrics - which it is not. The sign of peace is - if the presider instructs the faithful to.

For the record, if someone approaches me, be it hand holding or the sign of peace,I’m reciprocal about it - distracted or not. I do find it a little easier to pray in environments where there is less experimentation during the liturgy though.

 

[NeedImprovement]

So** that’s **what happens when one hits the quote button instead of the edit button…

 

[otjm]

BSHoop96:
I, of course, understand why you made this statement. And basically, you made a good and thoughtful response. I am not willing, however, to say all the small stuff does not matter. It does matter. It can become the proverbial “slippery slope”. I am not making a pre-Vatican II statement as I was not a Catholic then. I am not trying to be argumentative, particularly with you as I tend to agree with your basic assessment, but rather, I am making a statement against sliding into what, for lack of a better term, is often referred to as the protestantization of the Catholic church.
Neither do I suggest that the small stuff does not matter. But I do suggest that, as I said earlier, there has been a whole lot of ink spent on kvetching about something that on a scale of 1 to 10, in all honesty doesn’t make it to a 1. It may well be that some people find it somewhere between distracting and extremely distracting. Given that I have lived a life with ADD, I can understand distraction; but if people are constantly distracted by this at each and every Mass to the level they profess to be, I would hazard a guess that they are also distracted by what someone is wearing (see the threads on modesty - and I consider this more important an issue), babies crying, children fidgeting and eating Cherios, people leaving during Mass with a child who has to go to the bathroom, people leaving Mass during and after Communion (another issue I think is more important)… I think you get the drift. It may well be some of the complainers also suffer from ADD, and I would suggest - in all sincerity - that they seek help, as it isn’t much fun to deal with.

And if it is not ADD, then I would suggest they learn about priorities of issues - like dealing with our up-coming election as it relates to abortion (for starters), gay “marriage”, the track record of Catholics and artificial birth control, the rise of militant Islam (the president of Iran was on the news today and he is interesting to listen to if one wants to hear and cogitate on what he says); I am going to run out of room here but we could also get to catechesis, and I don’t mean catechesis about the rubrics.

If Rome in 40+ years has seen fit to issue two versions of the GIRM and not address the issue, maybe we could all listen to what Rome has addressed on other issues first? Like ABC; like abortion (which in turn is largely due to no sexual morals - what we of the 60’s called euphamisticaly “free sex”); war (read about Iran above); grinding poverty in many places of the world; secularism (interesting to see how it is now affecting Poland, that once so Catholic country when dominated by the USSR), materialism, the disintegration of the family…

And as to the often made charge of protestantization of the Church, I would suggest that those who make the charge are woefully ignorant of the history of the Church and where we have some of our small"t" traditions for centuries ago, long before there were any Protestants.

 

[Matt33]

Neither do I suggest that the small stuff does not matter. But I do suggest that, as I said earlier, there has been a whole lot of ink spent on kvetching about something that on a scale of 1 to 10, in all honesty doesn’t make it to a 1. It may well be that some people find it somewhere between distracting and extremely distracting. Given that I have lived a life with ADD, I can understand distraction; but if people are constantly distracted by this at each and every Mass to the level they profess to be, I would hazard a guess that they are also distracted by what someone is wearing (see the threads on modesty - and I consider this more important an issue), babies crying, children fidgeting and eating Cherios, people leaving during Mass with a child who has to go to the bathroom, people leaving Mass during and after Communion (another issue I think is more important)… I think you get the drift. It may well be some of the complainers also suffer from ADD, and I would suggest - in all sincerity - that they seek help, as it isn’t much fun to deal with.

And if it is not ADD, then I would suggest they learn about priorities of issues - like dealing with our up-coming election as it relates to abortion (for starters), gay “marriage”, the track record of Catholics and artificial birth control, the rise of militant Islam (the president of Iran was on the news today and he is interesting to listen to if one wants to hear and cogitate on what he says); I am going to run out of room here but we could also get to catechesis, and I don’t mean catechesis about the rubrics.

If Rome in 40+ years has seen fit to issue two versions of the GIRM and not address the issue, maybe we could all listen to what Rome has addressed on other issues first? Like ABC; like abortion (which in turn is largely due to no sexual morals - what we of the 60’s called euphamisticaly “free sex”); war (read about Iran above); grinding poverty in many places of the world; secularism (interesting to see how it is now affecting Poland, that once so Catholic country when dominated by the USSR), materialism, the disintegration of the family…

And as to the often made charge of protestantization of the Church, I would suggest that those who make the charge are woefully ignorant of the history of the Church and where we have some of our small"t" traditions for centuries ago, long before there were any Protestants.

For the most part I agree with you except that hand holding is something you can deal with in Church at that exact time… It isn’t taking away from issues that you think are more important. For instance, the election. This thread was designed to get ways to not hold hands in a hand holding parish. I don’t think that takes away from any other issue unless you are spending all that time in your life targeting other issues that you deem more important. By your rationale No one should ever do anything at anytime that isn’t focused on “bigger issues” the five minutes you spent listening to your favorite song or 3 hours watching a game could be better spent passing out flyers and advocating for your special causes.

 

[BSHoop96]

Neither do I suggest that the small stuff does not matter. But I do suggest that, as I said earlier, there has been a whole lot of ink spent on kvetching about something that on a scale of 1 to 10, in all honesty doesn’t make it to a 1. It may well be that some people find it somewhere between distracting and extremely distracting. Given that I have lived a life with ADD, I can understand distraction; but if people are constantly distracted by this at each and every Mass to the level they profess to be, I would hazard a guess that they are also distracted by what someone is wearing (see the threads on modesty - and I consider this more important an issue), babies crying, children fidgeting and eating Cherios, people leaving during Mass with a child who has to go to the bathroom, people leaving Mass during and after Communion (another issue I think is more important)… I think you get the drift. It may well be some of the complainers also suffer from ADD, and I would suggest - in all sincerity - that they seek help, as it isn’t much fun to deal with.

And if it is not ADD, then I would suggest they learn about priorities of issues - like dealing with our up-coming election as it relates to abortion (for starters), gay “marriage”, the track record of Catholics and artificial birth control, the rise of militant Islam (the president of Iran was on the news today and he is interesting to listen to if one wants to hear and cogitate on what he says); I am going to run out of room here but we could also get to catechesis, and I don’t mean catechesis about the rubrics.

If Rome in 40+ years has seen fit to issue two versions of the GIRM and not address the issue, maybe we could all listen to what Rome has addressed on other issues first? Like ABC; like abortion (which in turn is largely due to no sexual morals - what we of the 60’s called euphamisticaly “free sex”); war (read about Iran above); grinding poverty in many places of the world; secularism (interesting to see how it is now affecting Poland, that once so Catholic country when dominated by the USSR), materialism, the disintegration of the family…

And as to the often made charge of protestantization of the Church, I would suggest that those who make the charge are woefully ignorant of the history of the Church and where we have some of our small"t" traditions for centuries ago, long before there were any Protestants.

I’m not quite sure why you keep responding to me as if we are not basically on the same side of this issue. While I sometimes get in these discussions about smaller issues I never try to make a “mountain out of a molehill”. I don’t think that means we should never speak of them.

As far as your last paragraph. As I have explained twice the term “protestantize the church” is a commonly-used term to describe things going on in a Cathlic church which are commonly done in a many a protestant church. It’s not a slam against protestants. I used to be one. And I agree, some of these things were done centuries ago before protestants. That doesn’t mean people should just spontaneously introduce them back into the Mass.

btw, Ahmadinejad making an “interesting” speech at the UN has got to be the understatement of the year! How about these: crazy, misguided, stark-raving fanatical loonie, EVIL maybe?

 

[otjm]

For the most part I agree with you except that hand holding is something you can deal with in Church at that exact time… It isn’t taking away from issues that you think are more important. For instance, the election. This thread was designed to get ways to not hold hands in a hand holding parish. I don’t think that takes away from any other issue unless you are spending all that time in your life targeting other issues that you deem more important. By your rationale No one should ever do anything at anytime that isn’t focused on “bigger issues” the five minutes you spent listening to your favorite song or 3 hours watching a game could be better spent passing out flyers and advocating for your special causes.

No, by my rationale, I simply put more effort into being involved in issues that are more important. If the person next to me wants to hold hands, then I hold hands; if they don’t want to, then I don’t. In my parish, almost everyone holds hands, and there is no fuss when someone doesn’t. I don’t spend time thinking of ways to avoid the issue. I just deal with it.

I do spend time dealing with catechesis; I am on the team for RCIA and have been since something like 1994. I have also started a Catholics Returning Home program - I don’t sit and talk about the fact that something like 2 out of every three Catholics no longer attend Mass on a regular basis; I just do something about it. I listen to music constantly, and I don’t spend 3 hours watching a game except for Super Bowl (the party I attend has fantastic food!) but I do spend an inordinate time reading anything I can get my hands on (currently the biography of JP@ by Weigel, a novel about a psychiatrist and a book on candlestick charting).

Oh, and I also work with an adult education group we have started in the parish.

If the Pope comes out tomorrow and bans hand holding, that works for me. If he comes out tomorrow and enforces it, that works for me; I really don’t have a dog in the fight. and I am not holding my breath either way.

And I don’t hand out fliers. I truly don’t like picking up garbage; it comes from basic training in the Army and having to police others’ smoking debris…

So you don’t need to roll your eyes. I already did!

 

[otjm]

I’m not quite sure why you keep responding to me as if we are not basically on the same side of this issue. While I sometimes get in these discussions about smaller issues I never try to make a “mountain out of a molehill”. I don’t think that means we should never speak of them.

As far as your last paragraph. As I have explained twice the term “protestantize the church” is a commonly-used term to describe things going on in a Cathlic church which are commonly done in a many a protestant church. It’s not a slam against protestants. I used to be one. And I agree, some of these things were done centuries ago before protestants. That doesn’t mean people should just spontaneously introduce them back into the Mass.

btw, Ahmadinejad making an “interesting” speech at the UN has got to be the understatement of the year! How about these: crazy, misguided, stark-raving fanatical loonie, EVIL maybe?

There are some mullahs I truly wish would go to meet Allah… The scary part is I don’t think he is loonie. Wer that it were so; he is a true believer who lives in a world so warped that I think he not only believes what he says but is willing to act upon it.

And then there is the alleged Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times…

Yes, I respond, not necessarily for the writer of the post but often for other readers.

Welcome to the Church!

 

[BSHoop96]

There are some mullahs I truly wish would go to meet Allah… The scary part is I don’t think he is loonie. Wer that it were so; he is a true believer who lives in a world so warped that I think he not only believes what he says but is willing to act upon it.

Hence my term…loonie.

I wish we had an Adult Education class! Something else we need to get started!

 

[NeedImprovement]

…And then there is the alleged Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times…

We’re all cursed

 

[Matt33]

No, by my rationale, I simply put more effort into being involved in issues that are more important. If the person next to me wants to hold hands, then I hold hands; if they don’t want to, then I don’t. In my parish, almost everyone holds hands, and there is no fuss when someone doesn’t. I don’t spend time thinking of ways to avoid the issue. I just deal with it.

I do spend time dealing with catechesis; I am on the team for RCIA and have been since something like 1994. I have also started a Catholics Returning Home program - I don’t sit and talk about the fact that something like 2 out of every three Catholics no longer attend Mass on a regular basis; I just do something about it. I listen to music constantly, and I don’t spend 3 hours watching a game except for Super Bowl (the party I attend has fantastic food!) but I do spend an inordinate time reading anything I can get my hands on (currently the biography of JP@ by Weigel, a novel about a psychiatrist and a book on candlestick charting).

Oh, and I also work with an adult education group we have started in the parish.

If the Pope comes out tomorrow and bans hand holding, that works for me. If he comes out tomorrow and enforces it, that works for me; I really don’t have a dog in the fight. and I am not holding my breath either way.

And I don’t hand out fliers. I truly don’t like picking up garbage; it comes from basic training in the Army and having to police others’ smoking debris…

So you don’t need to roll your eyes. I already did!

You didn’t get my point. That ws probably my fault for not being eloquent enough. But good for you. You do so many great things you must be so proud.

 

[otjm]

You didn’t get my point. That ws probably my fault for not being eloquent enough. But good for you. You do so many great things you must be so proud.

Proud? No. I just go do it. I really don’t care what others think about what I go do; they usually find out from someone else other than me. It was just part of the conversation we were having, since you alluded to handing out fliers.

 

[Matt33]

Proud? No. I just go do it. I really don’t care what others think about what I go do; they usually find out from someone else other than me. It was just part of the conversation we were having, since you alluded to handing out fliers.

I think it is just the conversation you were having. I have no idea what the point was.