Yet another Islam question...

[Saint_Michael]

Muhammed made some extraordinary claims about the Gospel’s and God in general, just a few below:

1. Jesus was not crucified, someone that looks like Jesus was crucified or some variation of that.
2. The Ka’ba was first built by Adam and later Abraham and Muhammed.
3. The black stone at the Ka’ba fell at Adam and Eve’s feet
4. The Angel Gabrielle delivered the Koran to Muhammed.
   etc…

I don’t want to discuss the specifics listed but more importantly what is the reason for believing unverifiable claims and disbelieve the Gospels that are written by eye witnesses or people who knew the original Apostles? The Mormon’s claim to pray and the Holy Spirit will reveal that the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet. Does Islam have something similar? If not why would I as a thinking rational person just believe completely unverifiable claims that are very tough to believe without any sort of confirmation?

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[inJESUS]

Easy. rule number 1:

Everything Muhammad says is truth, regardless of opposite proof.History is what Muhammad said. Period.

Rule number 2: Bible corrupt.

 

[meedo]

I don’t want to discuss the specifics listed but more importantly what is the reason for believing unverifiable claims and disbelieve the Gospels that are written by eye witnesses or people who knew the original Apostles?

why would I as a thinking rational person just believe completely unverifiable claims that are very tough to believe without any sort of confirmation?

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut.

What makes The Quran claims unverifiable and the Gospel Claims verifiable?

 

[Eireann]

1. The Angel Gabrielle delivered the Koran to Muhammed.
   etc…

.

After what Saint Paul had to say, the rest isn’t worth considering.

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians
1:6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8** But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.**

 

[inJESUS]

After what Saint Paul had to say, the rest isn’t worth considering.

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians
1:6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8** But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.**

Jesus and all apostles warned us many times, especially Jesus before the crucifixion…He knew satan will do his best to deny what Jesus did for us.

 

[inJESUS]

What makes The Quran claims unverifiable and the Gospel Claims verifiable?

1-can you verify Jesus was not crucified? that’s an example. 2-Can you verify it was Gabriel who taught Muhammad what to say? another example.

1- No , all historical facts are againt the Quran
2-No, cuz only Muhammad claimed so when other people accused him of forgeries and being taught by a man so Allah had to send an aya to defend Muhammad which is called circular reasoning.

The Bible on the other hand was written by many apostles (not one) who gave the same testimony…these apostles taught other disciples and these disciples quoted all the NT starting from the first century when apostle John was probably still alive…these disciples were among the early Church Fathers and their teachings are open to all. The belief in Jesus’ divinity was before Bible canonization…it was expressed in the writings of these disciples…the canonization did not “make” Jesus God.

 

[Eden]

What makes The Quran claims unverifiable and the Gospel Claims verifiable?

Have there been any archeological projects that have found, for instance, that Abraham was ever in Mecca? There has been a lot of science to back up the claims of Christianity.

For instance, there is a lot of science and research that has confirmed the existence of places talked about in the Bible. For instance, I watched a very interesting documentary that was able to use the descriptions in Genesis to locate “Eden”. I highly recommend watching the documentary, or at least reading the article here:

christianity.com/religiontoday/1387338.aspx

Of course, there are many archeological projects and scientific research that have confirmed much of what the Bible tells us, right down to the fact that the stars *were *in alignment around the time of Christ’s birth in the formation that the ancient people would have read to mean a King was born! They have even traced the most likely path of the Three Kings who followed the star to find Jesus.

There has been so much research that has confirmed what the Bible tells us. Here are some documentaries on DVD about the subject:

shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?endecaSID=10DE12A1A581&langId=-1&storeId=10000&productId=56235&catalogId=10000

Here is an incredible documentary on Jesus Christ:

shopping.discovery.com/product-34453.html?rel_productId=14796

 

[Saint_Michael]

What makes The Quran claims unverifiable and the Gospel Claims verifiable?

Let’s just say hypothetically I am looking into Islam. Why would I abandon Christianity in lieu of Islam? Is there any verification we’re supposed to get that Muhammed is a prophet and the Koran is true? Otherwise I am just supposed to dismiss the Gospels that were written by Jesus own disciples, and believe that a man ~600 years after the fact has it all right? Do you understand my question? What is the reason for believing Muhammed?

 

[meedo]

Let’s just say hypothetically I am looking into Islam. Why would I abandon Christianity in lieu of Islam? Is there any verification we’re supposed to get that Muhammed is a prophet and the Koran is true? Otherwise I am just supposed to dismiss the Gospels that were written by Jesus own disciples, and believe that a man ~600 years after the fact has it all right? Do you understand my question? What is the reason for believing Muhammed?

You believe in Islam because you should not believe that Jesus is devine or part of God.

Pure ideas that should make you questions is that the Gospels cannot be traced to Jesus nor they are the Gospels of Jesus. Simple logic would make you question Gospels chosen based on a councell where many hundred other Gospels where excluded or burned and people where killed.

One big thing that should make you questions is that jesus never claimed to be God or devine. Exactly he did the opposite.

Further proof is that Judaism at the Time of Jesus and before and even after consider your current belief to be Idol worship no different than Hindus!

Further proof is that In the Old testament never there was a mention of God bieng in three forms or that he has a physical son. It never said that God acted like a man for a while or took some other forms and came Physically on earth.

Why should you become muslim? Because its a pure and solid and unwavering faith in God. The God of Abraham as he wants us to know him. The Quran has been preserved and kept intact same as it was revealed. Because when you follow the laws of islam you observe Morality and obedience to God .

Hope i clarified

Meedo

 

[Eden]

Meedo - Are you stating that the Quran was written by Muhammed? Because I have read an article claiming that he never wrote anything down.

Muhammad started inventing his own religion after 610 A.D. when he appointed himself as Allah’s apostle and messenger, as stated in the Quran (not as a prophet) and claimed that the Angel Gabriel ordered him thus (without any witnesses to his claim).

Since Muhammad and his several hundred companions were completely illiterate (could not read or write) and Muhammad had a poor memory; thus, his companions memorized for him the Quranic verses they plagiarized/concocted. But in the battle of Yamamah, almost all his companions were killed and the original Quranic verses were lost forever and was never compiled in writing before Muhammad himself was killed by food poisoning in 632 A.D. by a Jewish slave.

So a lot of people did have a hand in inventing the Quran. Thus, the bulk of the verses of today’s Quran, are actually from Muhammad’s wives, concubines, temporary wives, slaves and was edited by Zayed Ibn Thabit

islamreview.com/articles/inventionofislam.shtml

So, did Muhammed write the Quran?

Why were there no witnesses to his claim that the Angel Gabriel ordered him to do so?

Why would Allah have protected “his book”, the Quran, but not his earlier book, the Bible from corruption?

 

[inJESUS]

You believe in Islam because you should not believe that Jesus is devine or part of God.

Pure ideas that should make you questions is that the Gospels cannot be traced to Jesus nor they are the Gospels of Jesus.

 

[meedo]

Meedo - Are you stating that the Quran was written by Muhammed? Because I have read an article claiming that he never wrote anything down.

Muhammad started inventing his own religion after 610 A.D. when he appointed himself as Allah’s apostle and messenger, as stated in the Quran (not as a prophet) and claimed that the Angel Gabriel ordered him thus (without any witnesses to his claim).

Since Muhammad and his several hundred companions were completely illiterate (could not read or write) and Muhammad had a poor memory; thus, his companions memorized for him the Quranic verses they plagiarized/concocted. But in the battle of Yamamah, almost all his companions were killed and the original Quranic verses were lost forever and was never compiled in writing before Muhammad himself was killed by food poisoning in 632 A.D. by a Jewish slave.

So a lot of people did have a hand in inventing the Quran. Thus, the bulk of the verses of today’s Quran, are actually from Muhammad’s wives, concubines, temporary wives, slaves and was edited by Zayed Ibn Thabit

islamreview.com/articles/inventionofislam.shtml

So, did Muhammed write the Quran?

Why were there no witnesses to his claim that the Angel Gabriel ordered him to do so?

Why would Allah have protected “his book”, the Quran, but not his earlier book, the Bible from corruption?

Well, most probably you as a catholic is more knowledgable than i am about islam as i am only a muslim .

Also you seem so unbiased and fair.



Have fun Eden

salam

 

[Eden]

You believe in Islam because you should not believe that Jesus is devine or part of God.

Why should I not believe this?

Pure ideas that should make you questions is that the Gospels cannot be traced to Jesus nor they are the Gospels of Jesus.

Can you rephrase this? I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. Thanks.

Simple logic would make you question Gospels chosen based on a councell where many hundred other Gospels where excluded or burned and people where killed.

The men deciding which books were inspired were bishops who had apostolic succession from the Apostles in the late 4th to early 5th centuries. They were guided by the protection of the Holy Spirit.

One big thing that should make you questions is that jesus never claimed to be God or devine. Exactly he did the opposite.

How do you know that other than from what Islam tells you?
You are taught that the Bible is corrupted (why did Allah not protect it?) but if you read the New Testament you will see over and over again that Christ said he was divine. So, did the earliest Church Fathers:

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

Further proof is that Judaism at the Time of Jesus and before and even after consider your current belief to be Idol worship no different than Hindus!

Firstly, you are mistaken to say that we worship idols. Secondly, look in the Old Testament:

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html

Further proof is that In the Old testament never there was a mention of God bieng in three forms or that he has a physical son. It never said that God acted like a man for a while or took some other forms and came Physically on earth.

The Old Testament was the beginning of the revealed Word of God and the New Testament is its fulfillment. Christ came as a fulfillment of the promise.

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

If you read the Old and New Testaments, you will see that it has a continuity and much of what was foreshadowed before Christ’s coming was fulfilled when the Word became Flesh (Jesus).

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

Well, most probably you as a catholic is more knowledgable than i am about islam as i am only a muslim .

Also you seem so unbiased and fair.



Have fun Eden

salam

That is an interesting answer. I gave you the opportunity to refute the claim that the Quran was not written physically by Muhammed and to answer why there were no witnesses that the Angel Gabriel requested he do so.

But instead you attacked me personally. Do have an answer to my questions? I am trying to give you the chance to refute an article that I found.

 

[inJESUS]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, **Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." **
This verse points out the inescapable fact that the Messiah is God Almighty appearing in human form. That this passage was considered Messianic is evident from the fact that verse7 says that the Child would sit on the throne of David forever, a description which only fits the Messiah.

Did the Jews “insert” this verse? why? to suit the Christian “lie”?? hardly.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, 'When I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a king who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In His days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which He will be called; The Lord our Righteousness (YHVH Tseidkeynu).

 

[Eden]

More foreshadowing in the Old Testament (“Jewish Book”) about the coming of Jesus Christ:

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[inJESUS]

Isaias says: “**God Himself **will come and will save you” (xxxv, 4); “Make ready the way of Jahweh” (xl, 3); “Lo Adonai Jahweh will come with strength” (xl, 10).

God HIMSELF, not a prophet. Make a way to the Lord is quote again by John about Jesus.

Isaias also calls the Messias the “sprout of Jahweh” (iv, 2), i. e. that which has sprung from Jahweh as the same in nature with Him. The Messias is “God our King” (Isaiah 52:7)…

these are just some examples.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Muhammed made some extraordinary claims about the Gospel’s and God in general, just a few below:

1. Jesus was not crucified, someone that looks like Jesus was crucified or some variation of that.
2. The Ka’ba was first built by Adam and later Abraham and Muhammed.
3. The black stone at the Ka’ba fell at Adam and Eve’s feet
4. The Angel Gabrielle delivered the Koran to Muhammed.
   etc…

I don’t want to discuss the specifics listed but more importantly what is the reason for believing unverifiable claims and disbelieve the Gospels that are written by eye witnesses or people who knew the original Apostles? The Mormon’s claim to pray and the Holy Spirit will reveal that the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet. Does Islam have something similar? If not why would I as a thinking rational person just believe completely unverifiable claims that are very tough to believe without any sort of confirmation?

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.”
Matt 7:15,16

“Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”
Matt 24:11-13

“Then, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore, if they say to you, Look, He is in the desert! Do not go out; or Look He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.”
Matt 25: 23-26

 

[inJESUS]

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; then they will look on **Me **( God) whom they have pierced; they will mourn for **Him ** (God!!) as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.”
Zecharia 12:10

God is talking about Himself.

14
Sing and rejoice, O daughter Zion! See, **I am coming to dwell among you, says the LORD. **15
Many nations shall join themselves to the LORD on that day, and they shall be his people, and he will dwell among you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

God who comes or God who sends??

There are just too many refrences in OT…one cannot negate them…and Jews would be stupid to insert these words which suit the “lies” of Christians

 

[inJESUS]

Let us create man in our image

**74 **AD Epistle of Barnabas: "For the Scripture says concerning us, while He speaks to the Son, “Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness” (Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter VI.—The Sufferings of Christ, and the New Covenant, Were Announced by the Prophets.)

**180 **AD Irenaeus “It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. **For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; **” [Gen. 1:26]” (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

**200 **AD Tertullian: "If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; " whereas He ought to have said, “Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness,” as being a unique and singular Being? In the following passage, however, “Behold the man is become as one of us,” He is either deceiving or amusing us in speaking plurally, if He is One only and singular. Or was it to the angels that He spoke, as the Jews interpret the passage, because these also acknowledge not the Son?

First and second century belief in Trinity and Jesus divinity and pre-existence