Yet another OSAS thread

[WhatItSays]

As we have the Holy Spirit with us, our inheritance is in a sense guaranteed, but we can reject the Holy Spirit at a future time if we allow ourselves to fall into sin.
Because we do not know the future, we cannot have that one hundred percent metaphysical certainty, although we can say that IF we continue in the Spirit, we will gain our inheritance.

OK, that isn’t what is being taught in that passage, though. In a sense guaranteed? No, it is guaranteed according to the good pleasure of God’s will, not the will of man. That is very hard for people to accept, but apparently the God of scripture doesn’t care about the contrary opinion.

“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.” it says in Romans 8:33. I’m not going to get into a big debate about the noble Buddhist contrasted with the ignoble primitive Baptist, but needless to say, we can find plenty examples of individuals in scripture that God justifies with whom we would find fault. That is no excuse for behavior, as the scripture makes clear. It is what it is, God’s good pleasure to justify the elect according to the merits of Christ. Any other gospel is a works gospel, and very truly without the doctrine of OSAS, we, the creature, can make the argument that we, in some sense, have to earn our salvation.

As it relates to Ephesians 1, you need to read it again. It does not teach what you say it teaches, it plainly teaches that someone somewhere received a seal in him, which is the Holy Spirit, and that the spirit is a guarantee of redemption. There is more to the passage, including God making the believer alive from the spiritual dead and “hath raised us up together, and MADE US sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:6. Paul then reiterates in Ephesians 2:9 that all of this work of God has nothing to do with human works, lest any man should boast. Without the genuine doctrine of OSAS, then, again, you have a works-related salvation. There is no getting around it.

 

[JustaServant]

Without the genuine doctrine of OSAS, then, again, you have a works-related salvation. There is no getting around it.

Wrong.
Catholics DO NOT teach a works based salvation and that we DO NOT believe we can earn our way to heaven!
All works done in Christ are done in faith, just not alone. The Catholic position does not diminish the role of faith in a believer’s life - ‘the just shall live by faith’ and that faith is active, ‘faith without works is dead.’ Works that are salvific are works ‘done in Christ.’
You believe that faith alone saves and works follow. James in particular says that faith and works justify a person. We don’t see ‘salvation’ as a one-time event, but a process, with the final end to be determined.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13 (RSV)

 

[JustaServant]

Well, I would say this reminds me of the fall, in Genesis 3…

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Where Adam and Eve, instead of owning up their sin, rationalize their sins…in V12, Adam even blames God…and in V13, the Woman blames the serpent.

 

[JustaServant]

Maybe this can help.
What did the Council of Trent really say on Justification? Here are some points on Justification that Protestants may not be aware that Catholics are bound to hold as an article of faith.

The Council of Trent - The Sixth Session

CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: **but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace. **

CHAPTER IX.
Against the vain confidence of Heretics.

But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

CANON I.-**If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. **

The council taught the grace of God and the necessity of faith. They also acknowledge the need to press onward toward the high calling in Christ Jesus, which is also taught by Paul.

 

[WhatItSays]

Wrong.
Catholics DO NOT teach a works based salvation and that we DO NOT believe we can earn our way to heaven!
All works done in Christ are done in faith, just not alone. The Catholic position does not diminish the role of faith in a believer’s life - ‘the just shall live by faith’ and that faith is active, ‘faith without works is dead.’ Works that are salvific are works ‘done in Christ.’
You believe that faith alone saves and works follow. James in particular says that faith and works justify a person. We don’t see ‘salvation’ as a one-time event, but a process, with the final end to be determined.

Semiotic games. James explains, correctly, how works justify a man in the sight of others, not in the sight of God, who knows all. Let it be noted that it is not merely the Catholic Church which teaches a works-related salvation. Anyone that teaches there is anything you can “do” to get into heaven is teaching a works-related salvation.

Let me ask simply, if salvation is a process, with the final end to be determined, what is the criteria for determining the final outcome? I want a very specific answer here, please.

 

[JustaServant]

Semiotic games. James explains, correctly, how works justify a man in the sight of others, not in the sight of God, who knows all. Let it be noted that it is not merely the Catholic Church which teaches a works-related salvation. Anyone that teaches there is anything you can “do” to get into heaven is teaching a works-related salvation.

Let me ask simply, if salvation is a process, with the final end to be determined, what is the criteria for determining the final outcome? I want a very specific answer here, please.

Catholics DO NOT presume. To presume is taking the place of God. That is sin.
Catholic HOPE for salvation. They do not “work their way to it”, that is a Protestant myth.
Read the bolded and underlined portion of the Trent document I provided.

 

[JustaServant]

Let me ask simply, if salvation is a process, with the final end to be determined, what is the criteria for determining the final outcome? I want a very specific answer here, please.

God is the first and complete cause of their salvation having been started, or Redemption having been applied historically to each entering into the Church, but they with their own personal cooperation with all that God did were the second cause. God did all first as cause of all; they simultaneously actively received all and were second causes of all. God acting sacramentally by the visible members of the Body of the Church.

Of course, the result was complete joy in the Divine life, confidence in God’s love; but it was also a perseverance to the end! Salvation has been begun, but one must persevere to the end for it to be complete and final. Now GOD knows (by His choice) if each will freely persevere so as to be eternally saved; he will not withdraw His choice. But after baptism, one does not lose free will; one does not lose the possibility of sinning. Indeed, we still have those tendencies resulting from Original Sin of a wounded nature that inclines to sin, yet God does not tell us if we will be finally saved because He wants us to trust Him and not slack.

 

[WhatItSays]

God is the first and complete cause of their salvation having been started, or Redemption having been applied historically to each entering into the Church, but they with their own personal cooperation with all that God did were the second cause. God did all first as cause of all; they simultaneously actively received all and were second causes of all. God acting sacramentally by the visible members of the Body of the Church.

Of course, the result was complete joy in the Divine life, confidence in God’s love; but it was also a perseverance to the end! Salvation has been begun, but one must persevere to the end for it to be complete and final. Now GOD knows (by His choice) if each will freely persevere so as to be eternally saved; he will not withdraw His choice. But after baptism, one does not lose free will; one does not lose the possibility of sinning. Indeed, we still have those tendencies resulting from Original Sin of a wounded nature that inclines to sin, yet God does not tell us if we will be finally saved because He wants us to trust Him and not slack.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment that God wants us to trust Him and not slack, but you did not specifically answer the question, which was what is the criteria for determining the outcome of salvation. You seem to imply that the basis of salvation is how well we strive against sin and avoid it, to some extent. Is that correct? You seem to be saying that salvation is dependent on the individual believer participating with the grace of God in entering the Holy Roman Catholic Church, entering into the divine life, AND participating with the act of salvation. Is that fair to say? What is this participation in the salvific process, can you give me a few VERY SPECIFIC examples?

Protestants do not “presume”,either, as you are aware. They have texts of scripture which they take at face value and from which they construct their theological belief system. It is not presumption to say I believe that God, in this day and age, has enabled the elect to know that they are thus and that they have a predetermined consummation of salvation based on a plain reading of the epistles of Romans and Ephesians as advanced revelation to that which is contained in the gospels and book of Acts.

Thank you for the pertinent sections of the Council of Trent. Chapter nine implies that no one can ever know that he is elect or has achieved the grace of God. If one does not possess the grace of God (“once saved”), then on what does his hope for salvation rest? What would God say to such a person at the judgment as to why he did or did not obtain the salvation deposited within the reservoir of the Church?

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t disagree with your sentiment that God wants us to trust Him and not slack, but you did not specifically answer the question, which was what is the criteria for determining the outcome of salvation. You seem to imply that the basis of salvation is how well we strive against sin and avoid it, to some extent. Is that correct? You seem to be saying that salvation is dependent on the individual believer participating with the grace of God in entering the Holy Roman Catholic Church, entering into the divine life, AND participating with the act of salvation. Is that fair to say? What is this participation in the salvific process, can you give me a few VERY SPECIFIC examples?

For 2000 years the answer has always been the same:

Partake in the Sacraments :

Baptism - be born again by spirit and water, by the sacrament of baptism we become Christians, followers of Christ
Confession - acknowledge your sin, repent and ask forgiveness from God before man(a priest/spiritual direction), you can also ask God for forgiveness directly.
Communion- “Unless you eat this bread and Drink this cup, you shall have no life in you”

Go to mass at least once a week.
Pray everyday
Learn and strengthen your faith so you can share it with others
Love your neighbors as yourself

 

[Church_Militant]

Catholics DO NOT presume. To presume is taking the place of God. That is sin.
Catholic HOPE for salvation. They do not “work their way to it”, that is a Protestant myth.
Read the bolded and underlined portion of the Trent document I provided.

For 2000 years the answer has always been the same:

Partake in the Sacraments :

Baptism - be born again by spirit and water, by the sacrament of baptism we become Christians, followers of Christ
Confession - acknowledge your sin, repent and ask forgiveness from God before man (a priest/spiritual direction), you can also ask God for forgiveness directly.
Communion- “Unless you eat this bread and Drink this cup, you shall have no life in you”

Go to mass at least once a week.
Pray everyday
Learn and strengthen your faith so you can share it with others
Love your neighbors as yourself

That’s a very good essential summation of devout Catholic life.

I sum it up in a similar way in my blog article. How Is A Catholic Saved?

OSAS has never worked as a doctrine, mainly because it is an *interpretation *of certain scriptures that ignores or discounts other contextual scriptures that deal with the topic of salvation. The Catholic Church OTOH has never taught it and our doctrine is far more scriptural.

Some people act like they need some reassurance that they are going to Heaven, when the New Testament plainly only offers that assurance under certain scriptural mandates. It is nowhere stated as Sola Fide, but by grace and our responses to that grace, which include our faith in Christ and His death and resurrection and then taking up of one’s cross daily and following Him.

Personally, I do not feel a need for that kind of OSAS/Eternal Security blanket because I am secure in my relationship with Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ and am committed to following Him to my dying breath. If I stumble as I carry my cross, even as Our Lord did on His way to Calvary, then I rejoice in that He has provided for me the grace and sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation to restore me so that I can rise, take up my cross and continue on my way of following Him. (see my articles Catholic Confession and Scriptures About Penance)

You can see how I got here by reading My Testimony.

 

[JustaServant]

Protestants do not “presume”,either, as you are aware. They have texts of scripture which they take at face value and from which they construct their theological belief system. It is not presumption to say I believe that God, in this day and age, has enabled the elect to know that they are thus and that they have a predetermined consummation of salvation based on a plain reading of the epistles of Romans and Ephesians as advanced revelation to that which is contained in the gospels and book of Acts.

You claim Protestants do not presume…and then you proceed to presume.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) explains, “There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit)” (CCC 2092).

We would say that the weight of the witness – which in no way contradicts the full reading of ALL of Scripture – is more accurate that what appears to be “plain” according to your tradition.

 

[JustaServant]

WhatItSays
Let’s get to the meat of the matter of OSAS:

Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

 

[WhatItSays]

OSAS has never worked as a doctrine, mainly because it is an

*interpretation *of certain scriptures that ignores or discounts other contextual scriptures that deal with the topic of salvation. The Catholic Church OTOH has never taught it and our doctrine is far more scriptural.

No, it has always worked as a doctrine based on advanced revelation given to the apostle Paul in contrast with the other writings in the scriptures, many of which involve events that pre-date the cross and before anyone knew about the plan of God involving gentiles. Paul wrote to the Romans, of all people, and the salutation included his summation of “the gospel”.

“Now to him that is able to establish you, according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret from eternity,” Romans 16:25, Douay-Rheims 1899.

Paul calls it “my gospel” and explains that to him was given the revelation OF THE MYSTERY. So, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it is not in any way accurate to say that it “has never worked”. To preach that belief in the Lord Jesus Christ alone is all one needs for salvation makes perfect sense if you believe that the Apostle Paul received a special revelation. If you want to continue to hold councils and debate the reach of the “gospel” and believe that your works to merit salvation are not really “works”, that’s up to you.

Why this thread was moved to non-Catholic religions instead of Catholic apologetics, I do not understand. I am not advocating any religion. We are discussing Christianity and Catholic doctrine.

I’m just going to point out that:

“Go to mass at least once a week.
Pray everyday
Learn and strengthen your faith so you can share it with others
Love your neighbors as yourself”

…is so clearly a works-based salvation that you have to be intellectually dishonest to deny it.

So we are saved by a grace and not of works, as the council of Trent affirmed in chapter VIII of the section quoted. The passage further states that our justification cannot be merited (notice that word “merited”) by our faith or our works. It is so perfectly random that there is no reason to do anything as it is really up to the unknowable whim of such a God who might apparently justify someone who has never called upon the name of Christ or who might condemn someone who has “tried” to please Him. It is ultimately a grace, as the document puts it, so you are not allowed to presume.

Yet, JustaServant says that you cannot be saved unless you go to mass AT LEAST once a week, and that you must pray everyday, and that you must love to some certain extent, and that you must partake in the sacraments, and that you must do any number of other unspecified things. Why do them? The official dogma plainly teaches that ultimate salvation and “merit” is unknowable and random! So, everyone who believes this theology does, IN FACT, do good works in the HOPE OF SOMEHOW MERITING SALVATION. There is no getting around it. The statement from the council of Trent uses the word “merit”. Amusing.

Regardless, I proved my point from scriptures and you did not contradict it. Someone, somewhere, according to Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-3 is, in fact, OSAS based on God’s good pleasure of predestining the elect to redemption. Your argument is that it is a sin to presume that someone can know that they are elect. That is a different argument.

 

[WhatItSays]

WhatItSays
Let’s get to the meat of the matter of OSAS:

Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

What we see from the Bible is people receiving the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith in the gospel, and then Paul explaining to them in later epistles what the Spirit was working in their lives, including the promise that God had purchased the believer for Himself as evidenced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Certainly the Holy Spirit being given with the evidence of speaking in tongues in the early days of the church points to the crisis moment of which you speak.

I won’t deny that many Christian writings from the primitive church seem to lack the evidence of Paul’s revelation of justification by faith alone. I also note that the first one hundred years of church history are pretty spotty in terms of unfettered information. The Christian population of the Roman empire as of 150 C.E. was estimated to be a mere 50 K out of 60 million people, and Christianity was still largely seen as a schism from the Jewish faith. The main thrust of early Christian writings is aimed at solidly establishing who Jesus Christ was as opposed to the musings of the philosophers, Jews, and schismatics.

 

[JustaServant]

WhatItSays,

there is no salvation without merit. This article should help:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a127.htm

A brief excerpt on the point:

So when we say “merit” we mean that God is united with the soul and thus is giving divine value to our accepting His grace to apply or develop, simultaneously with His willing it, the “talent” of a virtue. Otherwise, we can’t say “merit” when God is absent. With God actually present, He first, and we simultaneously together with Him-Who-Is-Within, do the same virtuous action (“work”) and that is how there is an increasing meriting of the intensity of His presence within us, and increasing of the quality of His love within us.

We are saved by God’s grace. Our response makes it possible for His grace to operate in us. Once we are baptized into Christ, we can merit because we are ‘in’ him. Apart from him we cannot merit.

 

[WhatItSays]

Exactly, there is no salvation without merit. On this we agree. The scriptures base salvation on the merits of Christ’s atoning work on the cross. That is the merit.

Look, it’s very plain in Galatians. The Jews taught that you had to trust in Christ and be circumcised after the manner of the Abrahamic covenant. Was that so much to ask, that the new believers also be circumcised? Yes, it was too much to ask! It was adding to the gospel.

You will have to contemplate on the nature of works if you are to ever see this through. I don’t dispute that there are passages in the scriptures that teach a works-based salvation. Thus, my emphasis on Pauline doctrine and his exaltation of his gospel over all others.

 

[JustaServant]

I also note that the first one hundred years of church history are pretty spotty in terms of unfettered information. The Christian population of the Roman empire as of 150 C.E. was estimated to be a mere 50 K out of 60 million people, and Christianity was still largely seen as a schism from the Jewish faith. The main thrust of early Christian writings is aimed at solidly establishing who Jesus Christ was as opposed to the musings of the philosophers, Jews, and schismatics.

Really?
Lets just take the writings of the ECFs with 100 years of Jesus’ Resurrection:

Here is what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.

. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore
Letter to the Ephesians 20.

The Didache on Baptism:

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days
Didache 7:1.

Clement of Rome on being Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone:

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30.

“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31.

“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.

Compare this verse Luke wrote in Acts:

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

to this statement by Barnabus probably only a decade or so later:

“Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.” (The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 11

These are only a few exerpts, there are far more.

 

[JustaServant]

Exactly, there is no salvation without merit. On this we agree. The scriptures base salvation on the merits of Christ’s atoning work on the cross. That is the merit.

Look, it’s very plain in Galatians. The Jews taught that you had to trust in Christ and be circumcised after the manner of the Abrahamic covenant. Was that so much to ask, that the new believers also be circumcised? Yes, it was too much to ask! It was adding to the gospel.

You will have to contemplate on the nature of works if you are to ever see this through. I don’t dispute that there are passages in the scriptures that teach a works-based salvation. Thus, my emphasis on Pauline doctrine and his exaltation of his gospel over all others.

I believe a major problem you are having is about what a “Sacrament” is.
All humans are sacramental because we are physical creatures. If you are married, the ring on your finger proves you are sacramental. We can’t get away from it. God speaks to us through the physical.
A Sacrament is an “outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. In the Bible it is often translated as “mystery” or “mysteries”. “Sacrament” is merely the Latin translation of that word. In fact, the Orthodox still refer to them as “mysteries”.
The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body.

 

[PJM]

=JustaServant;9838117]Does the fundamentalist doctrine of once saved always saved lead to:

1. A lack of fear in regard to Hell?
2. A dismissive attitude toward sin?

Why or why not?

Before responding to your OPQ, permit an observation.

Protestants who accept their own doctrine of OSAS which as far as I can dertemine is not only NOT in the bible; but atempts to make void teachings which are clearly articulated in the bible. **John 10:16 & Eph. 4:5] ** Teachings like Only One God; One Faith [set of beliefs] and One church, as well as the Eucharist, forgiveness of sins [John 20:19-23] and others doctrines.

NOW TO YOUR QUESTIONS

1. NO, I don’t think it stems from a “fear of hell”. Much more likely it stems from NOT understanding the Divine Nature of God and the fact that Justice and Fairmess are both essential elements of God’s Divine Nature which are violated by such unfounded beliefs; and with this, alos a lack of understanding of sin and how Christ Himself MUST determine how, and if they will be forgiven [John 20:19-23] and lastly a very incomplete understanding of WHY God Created humanity ALONE with the necessary attributes to:

Know God

FREELY choose to love or hate God

Humanity ALONE are able to emulate God who IS “Spirit and truth”; [John 4:23-24] because humanity ALONE have a mind, intellect and FREEWILL permnately attached to our Souls. ALL “Spiritual Things” similar to God Himself. Given to us for the precise reason that we alone can freely choose the place we will sped eternity.

Isa.43 Verses 7 and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

So it is a kind of niave gullibilty that readily accepts VERY human revisions to long taught, defined, and accepted practices that are about 1,500 YEARS older than what they claim for themselves. Despite the Bible warning them against such practices.

Either the Bible is God’s Inspired Word and Teaching in its entireity or its worthless.
2nd.Tim. 3:16-17 and Deut.4: 2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.} … Prov.30: 6 “Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” … 2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

MUCH MUST be ignored or 'explained away" in oder to hold such beliefs.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

1. Nor do I think they have a dismissive attitude towards sin. Only a wrong one. There level of evident
   understanding is insufficient for a dismissive attitude in most cases. It flows from the fact that they assume a right not granted to them by God for self-interpretation and fail to recogonize the GRAVE RISK therein. Mark.4: 11 “And he said to them, "To you [the Apostles] has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;”
   …
   Mark 7:13 “Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.”
   ​

Because they choose to accept Christ Redemptive ACT as ALSO being all [along with their faith of course] that is necessary for ones own-salvation. In doing so the must put asside many of Christ own teachings:

**Suffering: . Luke.14:**7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

**Phil.1: 29 **“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2 Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

And Baptism: John 3:5

Faith through Grace

Obedience to the authorites CHRIST HIMSELF sets up: **Acts.20: 28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

**Romans 13: 2 **“Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.” and Mt. 28:18-20 a mandate to ONLY thee Apostles and through them the CC

Forgiveness of Sin in the ONLY manner COMMANDED by Jesus Himself [Jn.20:19-23]

Obedience to ALL of the Commandments: Mt. 19:17

And through Good Works which are the evidence of ones Faith [James 2:]

So it is the attitude that they have somehow been given a right unidentified, and insights not before givenby God in the 1,500 years of Catholism which precedes these very human teachings that seems to hinge on them either “knowing more or knowing better” than all that preceded them.

Let us PRAY earnestly for true Faith, Wisdom and God’s own understanding. Amen​

 

[JustaServant]

1. Nor do I think they have a dismissive attitude towards sin. Only a wrong one. There level of evident
   understanding is insufficient for a dismissive attitude in most cases. It flows from the fact that they assume a right not granted to them by God for self-interpretation and fail to recogonize the GRAVE RISK therein. Mark.4: 11 “And he said to them, "To you [the Apostles] has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;”
   …
   Mark 7:13 “Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.”
   ​

Because they choose to accept Christ Redemptive ACT as ALSO being all [along with their faith of course] that is necessary for ones own-salvation. In doing so the must put asside many of Christ own teachings:

**Suffering: . Luke.14:**7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

**Phil.1: 29 **“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2 Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

And Baptism: John 3:5

Faith through Grace

Obedience to the authorites CHRIST HIMSELF sets up: **Acts.20: 28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

**Romans 13: 2 **“Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.” and Mt. 28:18-20 a mandate to ONLY thee Apostles and through them the CC

Forgiveness of Sin in the ONLY manner COMMANDED by Jesus Himself [Jn.20:19-23]

Obedience to ALL of the Commandments: Mt. 19:17

And through Good Works which are the evidence of ones Faith [James 2:]

So it is the attitude that they have somehow been given a right unidentified, and insights not before givenby God in the 1,500 years of Catholism which precedes these very human teachings that seems to hinge on them either “knowing more or knowing better” than all that preceded them.

Let us PRAY earnestly for true Faith, Wisdom and God’s own understanding. Amen
​

It certainly can start with the wrong attitude toward sin, but when taken to it’s logical end it leads toward a dismissive attitude.
Christians who believe in OSAS don’t often think about thier sins or keeping thier conscience clean. The problem with our world is the lack of a sense of sin people seem to have. And if one isn’t always examining his or her conscience or being alert, we can fall into the same trap.​