Yet another Question about Marriage!

[Phemie]

Hello,
Please allow me to thank you for a very informative site. I am not a Christian or Catholic. I have,
however, been doing alot of research about the Catholic faith. After hearing a question on EWTN radio,
I do have a few questions.
1)If a husband & wife join the Church (after being baptized as Lutherans), is it necessary to have the
marriage convalidated?

No, barring impediments, their marriage is presumed a valid sacramental marriage.

2)If the husband was divorced prior to the marriage, is an annulment necessary?

That would be one of the impediments mentioned above. Yes, his first marriage would have to be examined for validity.

3)In the likelihood that an annulment is not granted, do the husband and wide need to be celibate until the divorced spouse dies? I do not mean any offense, but this seems absurd.

I may be off on this one, but I don’t think they could be received into full communion without the decree of nullity since they are in a legal, though invalid, marriage.

4)How likely is it that nullity will be granted on the grounds of Canon 1101, sec2 (Willful exclusion
of marital permanence)? Specifically, let us say that one or both parties entered the marriage with
the implicit understanding that they can divorce if it does not work out.

Hard to say what the Tribunal would decide, but if they had witnesses who could support that they did in fact speak that agreement then I would say it’s highly likely that the marriage would be found invalid.

5)How long do you think nullity could take given the scenario in question 5?

Depends on the diocese, the advocate, the defender of the marriage bond and how many cases are ahead of them.

1. Would celibacy be necessary in the above scenario?

The Church would consider sexual activity to be adultery against the first spouse so …

7)Are there any publish statistics on nullities granted in the Archdiocese of Detroit?

 

[eichenb2]

Willful exclusion of marital permanence (Canon 1101, sec. 2):
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce.​

I can say that when I was married, the first time, (as a professing athiest) that I IMPLICITLY hold out the possibility of divorce. How would one find witnesses for this?

 

[Phemie]

Willful exclusion of marital permanence (Canon 1101, sec. 2):
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce.​

I can say that when I was married, the first time, (as a professing athiest) that I IMPLICITLY hold out the possibility of divorce. How would one find witnesses for this?

You would have no witness but perhaps your spouse was aware of how you thought??

I think the problem today is that many people know exactly what they have to say in the interview. Years ago people had no idea that some things they thought or felt rendered their marriage invalid so the interviewer would have to dig with questions to bring out the information. Today, I could go to the interview and say exactly what I need to say to get the verdict I want.

 

[eichenb2]

Wait a second! What are you saying? If you feel that you need to impune my integrity, why not just come out and say it? Do you consider knowledge of Canon Law sinful? I am not Christian or Catholic, but I do find your implicit accusation offensive and not in keeping with the spiritual principles of Christianity. If I were considering becoming Catholic, I would not lie about my feelings at the time of my first marriage. I would enter the annulment process with full honoesty and sincerety. Also, I would fully submit to the Church’s teachings; including Canon Law. I am puzzled, as to why you would insinuate something like this. Perhaps, though, I am misreading your reply. If so, please forgive me.

 

[Phemie]

Wait a second! What are you saying? If you feel that you need to impune my integrity, why not just come out and say it? Do you consider knowledge of Canon Law sinful? I am not Christian or Catholic, but I do find your implicit accusation offensive and not in keeping with the spiritual principles of Christianity. If I were considering becoming Catholic, I would not lie about my feelings at the time of my first marriage. I would enter the annulment process with full honoesty and sincerety. Also, I would fully submit to the Church’s teachings; including Canon Law. I am puzzled, as to why you would insinuate something like this. Perhaps, though, I am misreading your reply. If so, please forgive me.

I’m sorry, impugning your integrity was never my intention. It was just to show why having supporting witnesses might be important in this type of case.

 

[eichenb2]

I have noticed a peculiar attitude from some of the posters to this site. I see it prodominantly on Marriage/Divorce/Annulment/Celibacy type forums. It normally plays out by someone asking a question about one of these subjects and, invariably, they get a few replies that sound something like the following. “Before Vatican II, I was celibate for 82 years. i never even looked a woman lustfully. You, youngsters, don’t know what it’s like to sacrifice for your faith. I walked 5 miles to church in a driving snowstorm, with breadbags on my feet and holes in my shoes, uphill, both ways. I didn’t even know what an annulment was. You, whipper-snappers, study Canon Law and do appropriate research. When I was kid, we did not even have books.”​

I know this is overstated and sarcastic, but I think my point is clear. Speaking as a non-Christian, the replies need to be more charitable and contain less bravado. Someone, whose heart is close to the type of rhetoric, will repeat statistics about 90% of the world’s annulments are in America and bemoan the Church’s laxity. I think they need to consider a couple of facts.

1. The Church in the US does not exist in a vacuum. There are a number of factors that affect social life in the US and they affect Catholics, as well as non-Catholics. There is, simply, moral decay that permeates all levels of society. Basically, when parents are morally lax, the children will have the same attitude. Apples don’t fall far from the tree. To simply imply that the amount of annulments is a result of ecclesiastical laxity is myopic and ignorant.
2. Give people the benefit of the doubt. People are in different situations and circumstances. I can speak for myself. I grew up in a nominally protestant family and, when I married the first time, I hoped the marriage would last forever; while understanding that some marriages do end in divorce and it may happen to me. I had nothing close to a Catholic understanding of marriage. Therefore, the thought that an annulment would be denied (if I were considering conversion) is unbelievable. Mind you, I am not a canon law scholar, though. My point, though, is that some of the replies are not in keeping with the spirit of compassion and understanding.

 

[Phemie]

Whoa, don’t shoot the messenger!

As I said, this was not directed at you.

When you petition the Tribunal for a decree of nullity you are asked to provide witnesses, preferably some who knew you both before and after your wedding. They will be interviewed and their testimony will be entered into evidence.

It’s the same for everyone.

I never said your petition would be denied, just that if your witnesses support what you said, either directly or indirectly it may be easier.

I’m not a member of the Tribunal or a Canon lawyer so take that for what it’s worth – which may not be much.

 

[puzzleannie]

What advice would you give the Catholic??

Thanks for all your repsonses

the same advice I give for all such questions. The Catholic should make an appointment with her pastor (not corral him after Mass on Sunday) and disclose all facts about her current marriage, all previous marriages of herself and her partner, and her wish to make this right with the Church, and follow his guidance from there. There is no one answer that is going to fit every couple who superficially meets the description in OP. Each marriage situation is unique, there is a solution for each situation, and the priest will help her find the solution that is in the best interests of the health of the soul of the Catholic party.

 

[eichenb2]

Can anyone give me odds on getting nullity, given the following scenario?
I got married in 1992 (age 23), while in the Army, to a young lady (also in the Army) after dating for about 4 months. We did not plan it, at all. We simply decided that we might as well get married and begin receiving the extra monetary benefits (apartment on post, extra food money, etc.), since we were dating anyway. We went to the local courthouse, filed out paperwork, grabbed witnesses and were married. Both of us genuinely wanted the marriage to work, but held out that if it “didn’t work out”, we could get a divorce. All of our parents had been divorced (some multiple times). Neither of us were raised Roman Catholic; although we were baptized (me - Presbyterian, her - Pentacostal). I was professing atheism and she was nominally Christian, at the time of the marriage. The marriage lasted all of about 2.5 years with two separate separations. Our time together was probably about a year. I, just out of curiosity, would like to know if anyone can give me an idea what my chances of annulment would be and on what grounds (if I were considering Catholicism).

 

[kage_ar]

What would you do if this were a civil matter? Would you get upset at the State?

A lady lives up the street from me. She and her husband have been married for 12+ years. She was divorced before this marriage, and one day she came across some papers relating to her divorce.

Long story short, she realized that her divorce was not yet final when she and her husband were married.

This ended up in legal issues that took a YEAR and a second marriage to her now husband to resolve.

She did not get angry or hate the State for something, the both found it kind of funny - and it strengthened her marriage.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Its a bit different. The state doesn’t care who you have sex with, we think that God does.

 

[Seatuck]

Can anyone give me odds on getting nullity, given the following scenario?
I got married in 1992 (age 23), while in the Army, to a young lady (also in the Army) after dating for about 4 months. We did not plan it, at all. We simply decided that we might as well get married and begin receiving the extra monetary benefits (apartment on post, extra food money, etc.), since we were dating anyway. We went to the local courthouse, filed out paperwork, grabbed witnesses and were married. Both of us genuinely wanted the marriage to work, but held out that if it “didn’t work out”, we could get a divorce. All of our parents had been divorced (some multiple times). Neither of us were raised Roman Catholic; although we were baptized (me - Presbyterian, her - Pentacostal). I was professing atheism and she was nominally Christian, at the time of the marriage. The marriage lasted all of about 2.5 years with two separate separations. Our time together was probably about a year. I, just out of curiosity, would like to know if anyone can give me an idea what my chances of annulment would be and on what grounds (if I were considering Catholicism).

The only way to know is to go through the process . I’d advise talking with a priest who is familiar with the process.

 

[kage_ar]

Its a bit different. The state doesn’t care who you have sex with, we think that God does.

The state does care, but, that is another thread.

My point is that people can be “blissfully unaware” for years and wake up one day and find out that they are in an invalid marriage. It is not the fault of the governing authority that this happens, it is up to the people involved to make things right.

Sometimes, life is not fair. The day you realize that is the day you are a grown up.